European Public Health Alliance: formula vs breastfeeding

Tova

Tue, May 11 2010, 5:44 pm

OK, but let's say someone in my situation needed WIC assistance?

Doctor's office is closed and I am having trouble feeding my baby and I don't have $15 for a can of formula to lay out. Unless every mother would leave the hospital with a standing prescription in hand that they could use if necessary...in that case what would be the point of making it prescription-needed?

I don't get the whole argument. I guess it goes to my shitta that although a mother's milk is best, when that doesn't work then formula is a perfectly good option.

chaylizi

Tue, May 11 2010, 5:48 pm

Someone in your situation should see a lactation specialist. Instead of formula, WIC would pay for someone to help you figure out WHY you are having problems. It's still less in the long run. Many of those getting formula don't ever both trying to nurse. They have received advice before they got to the hospital. Considering that there are many people in the US who don't believe in social welfare programs at all, what I am suggesting is not so radical. Simply stated, welfare programs do not need to pay for extraneous items. Babies did not starve before formula was invented.

(You are also conveniently ignoring the fact that it is quite easy to get free formula in your situation without making taxpayers pay for it. Every formula company will send you free packages even before your baby is born. Even without you asking for it. I have packages of similac/enfamil/good start arriving on my doorstep for months before the baby arrives. I'm not sure who tells them I'm expecting, but they are not beneath fighting for my business. I usually have plenty to give away & my kids have never tasted formula. If it takes weeks for you to nurse successfully & the specialist isn't helping you, the ped will give you a note, but give it a chance. You seem to see it as a right to get free formula from the government. It isn't. Pay for it or nurse.)

chaylizi

Tue, May 11 2010, 6:05 pm

You are talking to someone who has had every problem in the book. I worked hard on it. I had a chronic infection that no one could figure out & my OB thought I was certifiable. I even emailed Jack Newman begging for help (and help he did). I would have qualified for a prescription for my first daughter & no one would have blamed me if I assumed I was unable to nurse any of my subsequent children. I know what it feels like to be in agony when you nurse & have serious problems. My problems start anew with each new child & I have to fix them from the beginning. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THAT. I am talking about the women who don't even try because formula is free & the government will pay for it. At least try. You have supply problems? Or pain? Or mastitis? See someone for help & pick up your prescription on the way out. But at least try.

Tova

Tue, May 11 2010, 6:16 pm

My issues had nothing to do with pain, or infections, or supply. "Hard work" would not have helped my issues; in fact, the best success I had was when I DIDN'T try too hard.

And I pumped a ton because I do think mother's milk is best.

But I feel like that was my choice.

After having given many bottles of formula to two kids, I really cannot condemn someone who goes straight to formula. It is not best, but I believe it is not bad and still good nutrition for a baby.

PS - you said you had every issue in the book but on the other hand your kids have never had a drop of formula. Unless you pumped every single bottle that you did not succeed with at the source I don't know how that is possible. And although I pumped A LOT, if I tried to nurse and baby refused to suck but was hungry and I didn't have a pumped bottle handy, I fed formula rather than making my baby wait. I would pump later and have it on hand for another opportunity. You were obviously luckier than me in this regard, but even when mothers tell me they had issues and overcame them, unless you had MY baby you were trying to nurse - which I'm pretty sure you didn't Smile

- you really cannot understand.

chaylizi

Tue, May 11 2010, 6:20 pm

The problem was mine, not my baby's. I chose to cry through every feeding. That was my choice. I would not expect it from anyone else. I am a carrier of a genetic trait that makes it very difficult for me to nurse. (I am just lucky that I don't have the whole syndrome.) There is one medication that helps me. I didn't know about it with my oldest. I found out after the first 5 weeks of agony with my second. With my 3rd, I got a prescription in the hospital & had the medication by the bris. I was already having problems. This time BE"H, I hope to have the prescription filled before I go into labor.

Last edited by chaylizi on Tue, May 11 2010, 6:23 pm; edited 1 time in total

SivanMom

Tue, May 11 2010, 9:36 pm

I nursed both my children without any problems. And I commend all people that tried and tried despite hardships. However, I think it's just another form of judging other people's parenting when they don't. We do not know everyone's situations, what is going on in their home, so we can't know if "just try" is the right choice for every woman. These are real examples of people I know, but I'm sure there are many others - and none of these are related to baby not wanting to nurse, or mother not being able to.
- Relative has 8 children, ranging between 18 to 12 months (plus newborn, obviously). Her oldest four are teenage boys. She would not nurse in front of them, which meant that she would have to disappear every time the baby needed feeding. She felt this was not an option for her family - they need her and her attention.
- Friend's husband is disgusted by the sight of his wife nursing. Does he have issues? Perhaps. But we can't judge her decision to prevent that from happening if we haven't been in her shoes.
- Another friend lost her mother a couple months before her baby was born. She shuffled between her siblings' house and her house for a while, helping out and serving supper. She did not have the energy to nurse as well.
I'm sure there are many, many other reasons why a person would not even try to nurse. We have to do what's best for our children, and as long as someone else's is not being abused, it is not our place to judge another parent's choices.

BinahYeteirah

Tue, May 11 2010, 9:47 pm

Tova wrote:

After having given many bottles of formula to two kids, I really cannot condemn someone who goes straight to formula. It is not best, but I believe it is not bad and still good nutrition for a baby.

I am lucky that I have only ever experienced relatively minor issues during the past eight years I've been nursing. All the issues I had were pretty simple, par for the course stuff like sore nipples, difficulties latching, and a couple plugged ducts. B"H, most of the time it has been smooth sailing and not something I really need to even think about.

Obviously, you felt that the benefits of nursing were worth all the trouble you went through to nurse, even though it was very difficult.

If someone never even tries nursing, or never tries to get basic help and information, how will she know if it will be easy or hard for her? Maybe she would end up like me, and find that she really enjoys it and that it's actually much easier than she thought. Maybe she'd have minor problem that could be fixed in a single session with a LC. Maybe she would have ongoing issues and give up, and, of course, there would be that doctor's note waiting for her.

I do not condemn mothers for choosing formula, either. It is a parent's choice and none of us make the optimal choice every single time. Still, I do not think it is a good public health decision for the government to subsidize formula for the convenience of the parents when there are no other issues that make nursing more difficult than it should be.

Tova

Wed, May 12 2010, 12:13 am

BinahYeteirah wrote:

If someone never even tries nursing, or never tries to get basic help and information, how will she know if it will be easy or hard for her? Maybe she would end up like me, and find that she really enjoys it and that it's actually much easier than she thought. Maybe she'd have minor problem that could be fixed in a single session with a LC. Maybe she would have ongoing issues and give up, and, of course, there would be that doctor's note waiting for her.

I do not condemn mothers for choosing formula, either. It is a parent's choice and none of us make the optimal choice every single time. Still, I do not think it is a good public health decision for the government to subsidize formula for the convenience of the parents when there are no other issues that make nursing more difficult than it should be.

I agree 100% with your first paragraph. And I shed blood, sweat, and tears in my efforts to nurse succesfully (OK, maybe just the first two) and pumped a lot when nursing wasn't working out. But --- I know women that just found formula more convenient from the get-go or gave up after (comparitevly) minor discomfort. And I still think they are great loving mothers. Maybe I've become immune from all the formula bottles I have made, but I really don't see formula as a bad option; just second best (and DON'T get me started on Jack Newman's hierarchy of best-better-good-bad-worse...according to him, all the pumping I'd been doing still had me at 4th or 5th place. Enough to turn me off from his books).

None of that means that the next time I have a baby I hope to start the nursing slate clean. I have learned a lot in my experiences. My son was a very tough nut to crack, my daughter actually nursed well in the hospital but our first night home refused to suck and I had to give her a bottle and then things went downhill. Next time I (bli neder) will refuse to give bottles until a good nursing relationship is developed. Even if it means feeding pumped milk or formula through feeding tubes. I see now in retrospect that giving in a bottle so early really messed us up.

So with those views in mind, I think that if a family falls under the WIC or other such program income guidelines, there is no reason why formula shouldn't be made available to them. I don't see it as a bad health care decision. They can't force women to nurse, and no baby should ever be deprived of essential nutrition. That's where I am coming from.

Oysh, I'm embarrased embarrassed

I think I totally diverted this thread to my own agenda.

Raisin

Wed, May 12 2010, 4:29 am

SivanMom wrote:

- Relative has 8 children, ranging between 18 to 12 months (plus newborn, obviously). Her oldest four are teenage boys. She would not nurse in front of them, which meant that she would have to disappear every time the baby needed feeding. She felt this was not an option for her family - they need her and her attention.
-

So, her boys can leave the room when their mother wants to nurse. I CANNOT beleive someone is using this reason to not nurse. It says in the torah to nurse. Nowhere does it say you can't nurse in front of your own son.

I don't know, teenage biys are usually out of the house a good part of day. I find it hard to beleive that at the very leat she could have nursed some feedings, given bottles for the other.

The saddest part is these boys will grow up thinking breastfeeding is weird (becasue their mother didn't) and will perhaps discourage their own wives from nursing. Sad

Tova

Wed, May 12 2010, 7:23 am

Raisin wrote:

It says in the torah to nurse.

Just because I'm in a nitpicky mood - where does it say in the Torah to nurse?

The Torah talks about mothers or wetnurses nursing, about weaning, etc. It talks of a post-partum woman not remarrying 'til after her baby is two to ensure the new husband doesn't interfere with her nursing. It mentions nursing as one of the obligations a woman does for her husband.

There was an extensive thread on this and I made my poor husband look up all relevant sources. So while I found a source for a formula-like substance in the Gemara (can try to find the thread) - talks of a milk-egg concoction, the posters in the thread could not bring me any source that the Torah (includes mishna, gemara, later poskim, etc.) says to nurse (to use your words).

The Torah says to keep Shabbos, kashrus, not to wear shaatnz, etc.

[And please don't quote V'nishmartem here...]

For the millionth time, I believe nursing is the ideal way to feed a baby and that formula is not and will never be as good. But I disagree with making it a religious issue (beyond halachos involved, such as how long you can do it, etc.) or saying that a Rav needs to be consulted if a woman wants to stop or doesn't want to nurse (as was said in another thread).

[OK - don't worry guys - I've got a full morning of work ahead of me so I won't be able to check back here and continue my arguments until mid-afternoon!]

Raisin

Wed, May 12 2010, 7:33 am

Quote:

For the millionth time, I believe nursing is the ideal way to feed a baby and that formula is not and will never be as good. But I disagree with making it a religious issue (beyond halachos involved, such as how long you can do it, etc.) or saying that a Rav needs to be consulted if a woman wants to stop or doesn't want to nurse (as was said in another thread).

I have no issue with someone giving their baby formula because they can't nurse even though they tried, they have to work, etc etc etc

But to use some incredibly over the top tznius standard as a reason not to nurse your baby, is wrong.

Find me a source in the torah for not nursing in front of your teenage son.

Tova

Wed, May 12 2010, 7:39 am

I do not disagree at all with your sentiments regarding not nursing because of sons around (to be fair, I understood the most that there were kids as young as 12 month around that needed her and it was hard to escape to nurse). I think it would be perfectly appropriate to nurse totally covered up in view of her husband/children.

I disagree with the statement, which you are not the first to make that "the Torah says to nurse" or that one must consult with a Rav before stopping (as someone said on another thread). I wish I could search for it but I cannot think of any unique terms to put into the search boxes that wouldn't bring up tons of other threads.

BinahYeteirah

Wed, May 12 2010, 9:05 am

It seems like you have read all the sources, so I am not going to bother looking them up. The bit you mentioned about nursing being a wife's obligation to her husband is one source. Also, some rabbanim interpret the passages that state that a baby nurses until age two (and up to age four or five, if sickly) to mean that a woman is obligated to nurse until two. So there are some rabbanim that are of the opinion that those sources are definitely saying "nurse". There you go. Smile

I actually thinik V'nishmartem is a pretty good source, too. If rabbanim can assur smoking on the basis of V'nishmartem, then why not formula from day one when it is only for convenience's sake?