European Public Health Alliance: formula vs breastfeeding

Raisin

Wed, May 12 2010, 9:05 am

Tova wrote:

I do not disagree at all with your sentiments regarding not nursing because of sons around (to be fair, I understood the most that there were kids as young as 12 month around that needed her and it was hard to escape to nurse). I think it would be perfectly appropriate to nurse totally covered up in view of her husband/children.

I disagree with the statement, which you are not the first to make that "the Torah says to nurse" or that one must consult with a Rav before stopping (as someone said on another thread). I wish I could search for it but I cannot think of any unique terms to put into the search boxes that wouldn't bring up tons of other threads.

I understood it is one of the halachic obligations you have to your husband. Ok, maybe you can tell me all sorts of reasons why it doesn't apply nowadays, but you will find more sources in the torah to support nursing then supporting over the top tznius.

Maybe we shouldn't have babies becasue it might mean some male will see our private parts? Rolling Eyes

tznius is important but it does not override other mitzvos/obligations.

BinahYeteirah

Wed, May 12 2010, 9:20 am

Tova wrote:

And I shed blood, sweat, and tears in my efforts to nurse succesfully (OK, maybe just the first two) and pumped a lot when nursing wasn't working out. But --- I know women that just found formula more convenient from the get-go or gave up after (comparitevly) minor discomfort. And I still think they are great loving mothers. Maybe I've become immune from all the formula bottles I have made, but I really don't see formula as a bad option; just second best (and DON'T get me started on Jack Newman's hierarchy of best-better-good-bad-worse...according to him, all the pumping I'd been doing still had me at 4th or 5th place. Enough to turn me off from his books).

I agree that mothers who use formula are/can be very loving, wonderful mothers. I know many. Still, you obviously thought that all the sweat, blood, and tears was worth nursing, because, I assume, of all the benefits.

Tova wrote:

So with those views in mind, I think that if a family falls under the WIC or other such program income guidelines, there is no reason why formula shouldn't be made available to them. I don't see it as a bad health care decision. They can't force women to nurse, and no baby should ever be deprived of essential nutrition. That's where I am coming from.

Formula *would* be available to them, if they had any significant difficulties. Perhaps exceptions could also be made on the basis of other major lifestyle factors, as well. I don't think it is necessary to make getting the doctor's note very difficult. So babies would not be deprived, but maybe more people would at least try nursing and have more opportunities for lactation education.

I think that the WIC program reinforces biases against nursing in many lower income communities. Most Jewish women probably try nursing at least once, but there are communities out there that women rarely even try it. How can that trend be reversed if those women know that free formula is so easily obtained from WIC? There is no incentive at all for them to nurse. You could say that about some Jewish women as well. Why try again when you can get free formula no problem?

Hashem_Yaazor

Wed, May 12 2010, 10:49 am

Tova wrote:

OK, but let's say someone in my situation needed WIC assistance?

Doctor's office is closed and I am having trouble feeding my baby and I don't have $15 for a can of formula to lay out. Unless every mother would leave the hospital with a standing prescription in hand that they could use if necessary...in that case what would be the point of making it prescription-needed?

I don't get the whole argument. I guess it goes to my shitta that although a mother's milk is best, when that doesn't work then formula is a perfectly good option.

That wouldn't help at 10 PM. You don't get formula from WIC until you have made an appointment and said you're formula feeding.
So a newborn who hasn't been checked by WIC and labeled as "bottlefed" wouldn't have formula checks -- prescription or not. It wouldn't help for that first emergency.

Tova

Wed, May 12 2010, 11:15 am

I have no idea how WIC works in practicality.

Raisin - in case it wasn't clear - I DO agree with you vis-a-vis tznius!

Binah - Of course I consider all of my effort worth it. I would be curious for you to provide a source from a sefer that actually says a woman is obligated to nurse over another alternative. I would be very interested to see it.

Regarding "V'nishmartem" - maybe nursing can help fulfill that, but my husband has years of shimush by now in paskining shaylos and there is a halachic process involved in paskining and "you" can't just say "V'nishmartem" = MUST nurse over other alternatives without a halachic process guiding that. It's not just a feel good thing.

Hashem_Yaazor

Wed, May 12 2010, 11:19 am

Tova wrote:

WIC -- (not that I ever was on it, but I know enough people who are)...you go for periodic visits, and other times you get a month's worth of checks. A mother can either be breastfeeding, in which case she gets food coupons for her, or bottlefeeding, in which case she gets formula coupons.
She doesn't get them automatically as soon as her baby is born, so no formula check would be in her hands from WIC for that emergency when a doctor's note also couldn't be obtained.

Tova

Wed, May 12 2010, 11:28 am

Binah - to clarify this a bit more. A husband has obligations to his wife and a wife to her husband. Either one can be mevater on their rights. So one of the wife to husband obligations is to nurse his kids (wow - good fodder for the male-dominated religion thread! Very Happy

). The question now that formula is available is - if a husband wants her to nurse and she wants to give formula, can he "force" her to nurse? I would love to see a sefer or p'sak covering that - my husband does not know anywhere that addresses that.

If you just go by the Gemara, it seems from other areas that the Torah is just concerned that the baby has nutrients. This is in the halachos of a woman not remarrying before baby is 2 - I can find the source again - it says that if the new husband pays for the milk-egg concoction that is OK. If anything, this is coming to say that alternatives are acceptable and she can still re-marry in that circumstance!

This is a beef of mine - people say "feel good" things in the name of halacha, but to call something halacha (and not hanhaga tova, etc.) you actually need a halachic process involved - or to quote a talmid chacham who went through that halachic process.

Important Edit - paying for the milk-egg concoction is ONLY for a garush re-marrying his gerusha. We are not worried about him not providing for the child since it's his child.

Last edited by Tova on Wed, May 12 2010, 3:58 pm; edited 1 time in total

Hashem_Yaazor

Wed, May 12 2010, 11:33 am

Oh, re: the nishmartem thing...

While we do our best to protect our health/safety, there is a halachic way of determining what consists of this mitzvah.
For example, one rav explained that "rov" people getting in a car will not be involved in a car accident, so one is not being oveir on guarding his safety of not buckling. Is it foolish? Yes. (And there may be dina d'malchusa issues, as well). But is it an issue of v'nishmartem? No; it doesn't meet the halachic criteria, even though our knee-jerk reaction would be that it should.

chaylizi

Wed, May 12 2010, 11:34 am

Tova wrote:

This is in the halachos of a woman not remarrying before baby is 2 - I can find the source again - it says that if the new husband pays for the milk-egg concoction that is OK. If anything, this is coming to say that alternatives are acceptable and she can still re-marry in that circumstance!

This is not what happens in practice, I am really sorry to tell you. What happens is that it doesn't matter if you formula feed or you only nursed for a year, you are considered a meinekes until the child is 2. As you said, BTDT, bought the t-shirt. I've heard too many real life stories about this particular issue. What you are saying just doesn't happen.

BinahYeteirah

Wed, May 12 2010, 11:37 am

Tova wrote:

Binah - Of course I consider all of my effort worth it. I would be curious for you to provide a source from a sefer that actually says a woman is obligated to nurse over another alternative. I would be very interested to see it.

I know people who were told that they must nurse for two years, unless they have a reason to stop, by a rav known to me. I cannot give further details, since this was not my own personal shailah. I can try to look for other sources.

Tova wrote:

Regarding "V'nishmartem" - maybe nursing can help fulfill that, but my husband has years of shimush by now in paskining shaylos and there is a halachic process involved in paskining and "you" can't just say "V'nishmartem" = MUST nurse over other alternatives without a halachic process guiding that. It's not just a feel good thing.

Of course. I never meant to imply otherwise.

Strudel

Wed, May 12 2010, 11:37 am

chaylizi wrote:

Tova wrote:

I think it depends om who you ask. I know of a few women who remarried before their child was over 2.

Tova

Wed, May 12 2010, 11:42 am

chaylizi wrote:

Tova wrote:

I totally believe you about what happens in practice, but I am just saying what the Gemara says. I will get a more exact quote later.

Tova

Wed, May 12 2010, 11:43 am

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

So we agree :-)

[I know exactly who you are talking about and it's really really bothered me because in everything else I look up to this person so much...]

BinahYeteirah

Wed, May 12 2010, 11:45 am

Tova wrote:

If you just go by the Gemara, it seems from other areas that the Torah is just concerned that the baby has nutrients. This is in the halachos of a woman not remarrying before baby is 2 - I can find the source again - it says that if the new husband pays for the milk-egg concoction that is OK. If anything, this is coming to say that alternatives are acceptable and she can still re-marry in that circumstance!

No wonder this is not necessarily the normative halacha. During the times of the Gemara, the milk-egg concoction was a likely death sentence for the baby (depending on age).

Hashem_Yaazor

Wed, May 12 2010, 11:47 am

Tova wrote:

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

So we agree :-)

[I know exactly who you are talking about and it's really really bothered me because in everything else I look up to this person so much...]

Yes, and it bothers me as well because it doesn't sit right with me, but I don't doubt his halachic prowess. (It also seems to me, that this psak is something that might change as statistics change regarding frequency of car accidents, etc...lo aleinu.)

Chana Miriam S

Wed, May 12 2010, 3:22 pm

chaylizi wrote:

You are talking to someone who has had every problem in the book. I worked hard on it. I had a chronic infection that no one could figure out & my OB thought I was certifiable. I even emailed Jack Newman begging for help (and help he did). I would have qualified for a prescription for my first daughter & no one would have blamed me if I assumed I was unable to nurse any of my subsequent children. I know what it feels like to be in agony when you nurse & have serious problems. My problems start anew with each new child & I have to fix them from the beginning. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THAT. I am talking about the women who don't even try because formula is free & the government will pay for it. At least try. You have supply problems? Or pain? Or mastitis? See someone for help & pick up your prescription on the way out. But at least try.

jack newman is awesome. you are lucky you knew about him....I was a lll leader in both canada and the states and cannot tell you the times that my questions were quickly and simply answered using his resources as a reference. he answers calls and emails from all over the world and does not get paid for anyone who he does not see in person (afaik) he is truly a tzaddik. I don't know if he is jewish or not, but a tzaddik he is.

Tova

Wed, May 12 2010, 3:39 pm

If Jack Newman is as nice as everyone says he is, maybe I should contact him and let him know why I didn't like his book.

Binah, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth (you are one of my favorite posters, actually!). When I post I tend to generally expound on whatever I am blabbering on about. And, I'm a real Litvak at heart and a bit of a stickler for correct terminology when dealing with halachic issues. Why would you think that the Gemara would mention something as acceptable is it would be fatal to the babies at that time?