European Public Health Alliance: formula vs breastfeeding

Tova

Wed, May 12 2010, 3:53 pm

Ahhh...found the thread I was refering to:

http://imamother.com/forum/vie.....89840

Some relevant quotes of mine:

Rambam, Hilchos Ishus, chap 21:13 (another poster was claiming this is a source of the Torah's obligation to nurse)

This refers to if a woman makes a neder not to nurse her son. The neder is not chal and she still has to nurse him for 24 months. It is a gemara.

This gemara in Kesubos says a woman is mechuyav to nurse her son - it is one of the melachos she has to do for her husband. And if she makes a neder not to, this neder is not chal.

Nowadays, the shayla may be if she wants to give formula and husband wants her to nurse. Then there may be a shayla. But if the husband agrees about the formula feeding there is no halachic source here that says she must nurse.

You will not find a source in the gemara or shulchan aruch about whether a woman can give formula instead of nursing (obviously). It would be more to the point to bring up a sefer of teshuvos written within the past century (since the invention of formula) about whether formula has a din like nursing or not.

------------------------

(Related to not remarrying if you have a child under 24 months):

For that halacha the gemara says very clearly that it applies even if the baby is weaned or a wet-nurse is used. It is a gezaira of the gemara. Even HaEzer 13:11.

------------------------

Sorry that I didn't say this over accurately - but related to when a woman with a child under 24 months CAN remarry (it's not across the board):

Yevamos 42b -

If a man divorces his wife and the child is under 24 months and then he wants to re-marry his gerusha still w/in the 24 month period he is ALLOWED to because the gemara says even if she gets pregnant again he will care for the older baby - because it's his child - by supplementing with milk and eggs. If anything this is a proof advocating breastmilk equivalents when necessary.

BinahYeteirah

Wed, May 12 2010, 4:42 pm

Tova wrote:

Binah, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth (you are one of my favorite posters, actually!). When I post I tend to generally expound on whatever I am blabbering on about. And, I'm a real Litvak at heart and a bit of a stickler for correct terminology when dealing with halachic issues. Why would you think that the Gemara would mention something as acceptable is it would be fatal to the babies at that time?

I am so flattered that I'm one of your favorite posters! embarrassed

I guess I really didn't want to be "one of those people". LOL

I have issues with the same thing sometimes. There are websites out there that claim things like it being forbidden to eat meat or do bris milah (!) in the name of Torah or halacha.

As for why the Gemara would mention something as acceptable if it were potentially fatal at the time, I don't know. It could be because older babies/toddlers might be able to handle the milk-egg stuff. It might be because infant mortality was so high then that that level of risk was seen in a different light. It might be because widowed and divorced women at the time were in a very difficult situation. Perhaps they and their children were already at risk of starvation without a husband and father to provide for them, so, again perhaps the advantages of a new marriage outweighed the milk-egg risk to the child. Perhaps the risk of the woman getting pregnant again was considered to be relatively low within the first two years, even if she had a new husband. I don't know.

Chana Miriam S

Wed, May 12 2010, 11:11 pm

tova,

I bet I know why you did not like his book. it was very clinical and included a LOT of science and stuff which the average new mother could not begin to synthesize let alone utilize in the haze of the days after childbirth.

for me, it was a fabulous resource, but I was a lll leader with a great deal of training plus not nursing a newborn when I read it.

a better book for new mothers and fathers, in my opinion is the womanly art of breastfeeding, which is a lll publication.

Tova

Thu, May 13 2010, 12:11 am

chanamiriam wrote:

Nope - no haze or unability to synthesize after birth. I felt amazingly wonderful after the birth of my first. It didn't even seem to me that it was written for a professional.

My main problem with it was his hierarchy of ideals in feeding the baby. I pumped a lot so my baby could get the benefit of my milk and picked up J Newman's book in Barnes and Noble to get some encouragement only to see that according to him I was only doing 4th or 5th best. Because - oh didn't you know - when you pump into a bottle and then feed the bottle to baby, a lot of nutrients are still left behind in the bottle. OK - so 2nd best is a wet nurse. No thanks. I did much better when I stopped thinking about his shittos.

Strudel

Thu, May 13 2010, 12:35 am

Tova wrote:

chanamiriam wrote:

His book and website are ok, but I perfer Dr Sears for a more holistic mothering experience.
Dr Jack Neuman and his absolute fixation of breasts and breastfeeding can be a bit unsettling.

chaylizi

Thu, May 13 2010, 12:51 am

BinahYeteirah wrote:

chaylizi wrote:

Have you seen his position on co-sleeping? That upsets lots of mothers.)

He's pro-co-sleeping, right? What's upsetting about that?

Yes he is very pro-cosleeping.

It upsets mothers (not including me. I have coslept with all 3) for 3 reasons:

1. He is very disparaging of those who would use a crib or other receptacle to contain their infant.

2. Most pediatricans/hospitals say the complete opposite. If you dare fall asleep holding your infant in the hospital, many pp nurses will wake you up & treat you to a safety lecture.

3. Some people do not understand that most instances of smothered infants in an adult bed involve an adult who was under the influence of something. Some people also don not understand that smothering or suffocating is not SIDS.

suomynona

Thu, May 13 2010, 4:01 am

chaylizi wrote:

2. Most pediatricans/hospitals say the complete opposite. If you dare fall asleep holding your infant in the hospital, many pp nurses will wake you up & treat you to a safety lecture.

The hospital I gave birth in has rooming in during the day. The first day after I gave birth, having been up the whole night, I kept on dozing off holding my baby. She was very kvetchy so I had to hold her. She literally almost fell on the floor a few times. I didn't understand why the hospital didn't care...

Raisin

Thu, May 13 2010, 4:46 am

Tova wrote:

chanamiriam wrote:

just because you can't do something you don't like his ideas? I have some great diet books but you know, I really prefer to eat chocolate and white bread, so therefore I think those diet books are rubbish?

So, he's probably right that a wet nurse is better then expressing, but it's probably not practical option for most people. (personally, I couldn't imagine ever using a wet nurse, and would for sure rather express then do that) Doesn't mean he shouldn't point out that it is in fact better. if somebody is writing a book like that, he should write what is true, not what his readers want to hear.

Raisin

Thu, May 13 2010, 8:40 am

Tova wrote:

Raisin wrote:

just because you can't do something you don't like his ideas?

No. [I am more intellectually honest than that. Interestingly enough, any pro-BF or LC that I mention my beef with the book to agrees with me.]

to be fair I haven't read his book. but I find your objection to that point odd. so wet nurisng is not very in fashion now.

(I also wonder, isn't it better to give your own expressed milk - presumably you know that you are healthy and have no diseases, then have a wet nurse feed your baby. However well you think you know her, there is always the small chance of her having something that could be passed on through breast milk, especially outside the frum community.)

BinahYeteirah

Thu, May 13 2010, 8:46 am

Raisin wrote:

(I also wonder, isn't it better to give your own expressed milk - presumably you know that you are healthy and have no diseases, then have a wet nurse feed your baby. However well you think you know her, there is always the small chance of her having something that could be passed on through breast milk, especially outside the frum community.)

I have heard of people using wet nurses and they had the person extensively tested for diseases. It's similar to the kind of testing that they do on donor breastmilk, although I guess it is a one time thing rather than continuously testing the milk itself.

If the risk of disease is very low, then the benefits of nursing directly from a breast likely outweigh that.

Hashem_Yaazor

Thu, May 13 2010, 9:46 am

The problem with the hierarchy is because women want to turn to his book when they're having trouble. That is not chizuk; that is not practical. To establish a good breastfeeding relationship, you have to work with what you have and guide with those resources.

Tova, I think pumped milk is not 4 or 5 -- the bottle aspect is.

So he would do:
1. Nurse
2. Have someone else nurse.
3. Pumped milk and use an SNS
4. Pumped milk and use spoon/medicine dropper/cup (he might separate these)
5. Pumped milk and use bottle
6. Formula (SNS? Not sure if he separates this as well -- formula in bottle is the last)

I agree with a lot of his linear thinking (bottle is last resort since it rarely makes it easier to get nursing back on track), but there are 2 things going on: breastfeeding and breastmilk. It's kind of hard to say which is more important, when you take in the whole picture of a mother-baby relationship. So it's hard to do a hierarchy without taking the intangible, unscientific aspects of mothering into the equation.

Why I like him is because of his no-nonsense, logical information on almost any breastfeeding problem. His philosophy may be a bit too strong for some (many?), but his knowledge is unparalleled.

I actually emailed him myself once when I developed a rare complication, and he gave me good advice in the first paragraph. The second paragraph had to do with ensuring I had a good latch (nothing at all related to my issue), and the third was a promotion of his book (which I had told him I had!!) -- I realized he has a template, and the last 2 paragraphs are part of it Tongue Out

momoswyf

Tue, Apr 03 2012, 10:43 am

as someone who struggles to nurse, I recommend making more milk as a really nice book to read to understand the ins and outs of breastfeeding. I don't remember it being too preachy, it just studies the biology of making milk. my baby and I had the best latch in the world, but I still had a low supply and I nursed every 2 hours, not everything goes by jack newman's book. I would have been the perfect candidate for a SNS, maybe next time .... Also, one of the posts mentioned cosleeping in the hospital. BTDT, I remember being scared stiff of the nurses catching me with MY baby in bed with me. LOL

Ruchel

Tue, Apr 03 2012, 12:20 pm

1) There are sources from about Rashi's times about machlokes on waiting 24 months if the child is weaned or at a wet nurse, some rabbanim allowing remarrying, some not. Source: a book on Middle Ages childrearing, someone posted it on Imamother I think

2) As someone European who hears pro formula if not anti nursing comments at every doc visit for 3 months, and just this week had to negociate for hours to be allowed to nurse my baby as he was sick, I don't bother reading articles. Let them do basic tolerance information first.