Would YOU do this if you had the money?

Atali

Sun, Jul 25 2010, 9:55 pm

mammele26 wrote:

I think it's great that people can own as much and as many as they want (I hope to one day!). But I do find something wrong with doing business on other pp's cheshbon. Meaning, I feel it's wrong if my doing business will mean that people will have less to eat/drink. Same goes to decent housing. You want to do business? No Problem! Do it in the commercial world, in other type neighborhoods, etc. Oh, and then BUY (to own, not sell to make money) as many as you want in our neighborhood. Not on the cheshbon of struggling families. I know when and if I have the means, I will not be doing business like that. I'm not commenting on whether these people are wrong. I know that I won't do it. I could never live knowing that in fact I was able to make it easier for yidden and didn't. And decent housing isn't a luxury. It's a necessity.

But if no one buys investment properties in frum neighborhoods, there will be no rental homes available.

MommyZ

Sun, Jul 25 2010, 10:04 pm

mammele26 wrote:

I think it's great that people can own as much and as many as they want (I hope to one day!). But I do find something wrong with doing business on other pp's cheshbon. Meaning, I feel it's wrong if my doing business will mean that people will have less to eat/drink. Same goes to decent housing. You want to do business? No Problem! Do it in the commercial world, in other type neighborhoods, etc. Oh, and then BUY (to own, not sell to make money) as many as you want in our neighborhood. Not on the cheshbon of struggling families. I know when and if I have the means, I will not be doing business like that. I'm not commenting on whether these people are wrong. I know that I won't do it. I could never live knowing that in fact I was able to make it easier for yidden and made it harder instead. And decent housing isn't a luxury. It's a necessity. I don't think the wealth should be distributed. I'm very against that. But I think it's selfish to not think about those who are less fortunate.

Owning a home is not an entitlement. It's something that some people work their whole lives and never achieve or work for many years to achieve. It's an investment for many and why should a frum family feel like they have to lose out on that investment just because another frum family feels like they are entitled to someone else's home? Yes it's hard to rent and we've been doing it for 7 1/2 years because we can't afford to buy but that doesn't mean someone owes it to us to sell their home at below market value so that we can buy it.

Rodent

Sun, Jul 25 2010, 10:12 pm

I did say it wouldn't work in reality.
But it's not like social housing doesn't exist to some degree, just not exclusively, some places it is far more common than it is here and they seem to manage just fine. I don't agree with all your wrote about everything else. Besides, if you make life difficult for that huge amount of voters then you'd be out pretty fast... I'm not talking great houses in public, but simple and safe, for a price that reflects income. Fancy you'd have to pay for and I'm sure some sort of incentives could be worked out. Besides, with an income based approach there would come a time when it would be cheaper to buy than rent publicly. I don't see the issue with large families either. It's getting impossible for large families to rent here because there is a shortage of properties and people want less wear and tear on smaller homes. Bigger houses are hard to find and are out of most budgets. In a sense public with rations etc is much fairer in such situations.
I'm an idealist. Just ignore the impracticalities....

mammele26

Sun, Jul 25 2010, 10:14 pm

Atali wrote:

mammele26 wrote:

But if no one buys investment properties in frum neighborhoods, there will be no rental homes available.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. What I meant was that it's perfectly ok to invest, but not if it means making it IMPOSSIBLE for people to live decently. I'm talking about taking away the possibility for decent housing. They can invest in different type of neighborhoods. Or develop cheap areas at reasonable prices. If they want to do business specifically in our neighborhoods, I think the right thing would be to be mevater on the 'extra money' they are making. It's ok if they are stam making money. It's not ok if it means that people are struggling much more than the norm because of their business.

amother

Sun, Jul 25 2010, 10:22 pm

oh please. we own a small house in a frum neighborhood and are planning IYH to move into a larger house and rent out the smaller one. I believe anyone who could afford it would and should do the same thing. the whole "profitting on other people's cheshbon" is ridiculous- almost every business will affect the frum community in some way. it's how people make a living.

if you can't afford it, you'll have to rent something either smaller or else where. We did for years until we could afford to buy. it's not an aveira to make money.

mammele26

Sun, Jul 25 2010, 10:26 pm

I forgot to add, I'm not implying that everyone has to own. But to rent and pay your pants while you're not even living decently because people are getting rich, is another story. The fact that in many neighborhoods people can't RENT without government help, is not a good thing. It means the rentals are costing more than the market value, because houses only cost what people will pay... And I'm not even discussing that the government aid is also at fault here. Because people get it, it makes the market go up so people without it can't afford. Government help creates the illusion that the market is higher. And this is the place to mention that people who get section 8 who are not eligible or pay extra in addition to section 8 where it is not legal, are JUST AS MUCH AT FAULT if not more (I think more...) for the high rents.

mammele26

Sun, Jul 25 2010, 10:38 pm

amother wrote:

FYI, I'm doing the same thing. This is not what this is about. Atali brought out the rental idea perfectly. What I'm upset about is people who lichatchila buy, to 'flip'. Of course you should make money where you can. If you don't, you're stupid. But stam flipping should IMO be done elsewhere. I'm not talking about regular buying, selling, renting out at market rates. What bothers me is when their doing business make the prices shoot up way above the market value. That to me is making it impossible for people of the neighborhood to live decently.

Tzippy2010

Mon, Jul 26 2010, 1:13 am

would you consider moving to another area? Especially if home ownership is important to you. We made Aliyah a few months ago and were originally intending to live in the center, but fell in love with the Golan where we are moving to next week. A big plus is that it is more affordable to live there, lower costs of living. Look around and maybe you will find another area where property is more affordable.

MommyZ

Mon, Jul 26 2010, 5:44 am

mammele26 wrote:

Atali wrote:

mammele26 wrote:

But if no one buys investment properties in frum neighborhoods, there will be no rental homes available.

So do you think the vacuum left by frum Jews if they stopped investing in frum neighborhoods wouldn't be filled by other people trying to make a profit? I don't understand the logic there. Frum people choose to live in frum communities creating a greater demand then there is a supply when it comes to housing and artificially driving up the price of houses. Blaming it on individual investors is not being intellectually honest.

ora_43

Mon, Jul 26 2010, 6:27 am

louche wrote:

sequoia wrote:

I don't think Judaism requires us to be capitalists. ?

Neither does it forbid it.

No, but the "it's my money and I'll buy what I want" school, "pure" capitalism isn't usually permitted AFAIK. For example, I can't open a pizza shop next door to the one that already exists in my neighborhood and drive the old one out of business. I can't sell merchandise marked up 100% (or even 30%) even if I can find buyers who don't know the going rate and are willing to pay my price.

I don't think buying up property to the point where young families can't afford housing, with the plan of selling it at a price far above current market value, is an obviously muttar way of doing business. I'm not saying it's not allowed, I don't know, but in general these things aren't so straightforward IME.

Barbara

Mon, Jul 26 2010, 6:29 am

mammele26 wrote:

I think it's great that people can own as much and as many as they want (I hope to one day!). But I do find something wrong with doing business on other pp's cheshbon. Meaning, I feel it's wrong if my doing business will mean that people will have less to eat/drink. Same goes to decent housing. You want to do business? No Problem! Do it in the commercial world, in other type neighborhoods, etc. Oh, and then BUY (to own, not sell to make money) as many as you want in our neighborhood. Not on the cheshbon of struggling families. I know when and if I have the means, I will not be doing business like that. I'm not commenting on whether these people are wrong. I know that I won't do it. I could never live knowing that in fact I was able to make it easier for yidden and made it harder instead. And decent housing isn't a luxury. It's a necessity. I don't think the wealth should be distributed. I'm very against that. But I think it's selfish to not think about those who are less fortunate.

OK, so flip the situation. These people do NOT buy up properties for investment purposes. Housing costs plummet. OP can buy a house.

Of course, the seller is another frum person, who is probably selling because she can no longer afford the house due to the economy. She's hoping to net *something* to keep her family going. But because investors stepped aside so people like OP could buy, Seller is going to lose her shirt.

louche

Mon, Jul 26 2010, 6:33 am

OP, a homeowner has bought a house and expects to make a profit selling it. That's his right. The person who sold it to him made a profit, too. I feel your pain, but be honest. If you had a car that you knew you could sell for $10k, would you sell it for $3k just because a frum young family wanted it?

Yes, frum people live in a concentrated area, usually with the shul at the epicenter. You have several choices: if you can afford to buy a house three blocks from shul, you do. If you cannot, you resign yourself to buying a house on the fringes of the frum area, maybe a half mile or a mile from the shul. Maybe even--gasp!!--OUTSIDE THE ERUV---for half the price. It's not Timbuktu; you are still near Jewish businesses and schools, just a little less conveninet.

And you know what happens next? Other young frum families who also cannot afford to live three blocks from shul move into your block, because there is a;ready a frum family (yours) there. Eventually someoen starts holding a breakaway minyan in their basement; eventually the eruv is expanded to include your section, and eventually the people on your side of Main Street build their own shul. And the property values rise, and eventually YOU will be selling your house in the now-very desirable section of town, and believe me, you'll be holding out for the highest price you can get. Not slashing your price to make it possible for a nice young family to live three blocks from shul.