I'm modern orthodox so I'm allowed

TzenaRena

Mon, Sep 13 2010, 3:38 am

Marion wrote:

Let's remember that chumra does NOT equal halacha, shall we?

Ah, but often enough, even if not always the case, that which is relegated to chumrah by those who wish to be more lenient, is actually halacha. And the lenient take on the halacha , which may sometimes be bedieved (valid only after the fact) to the utmost and not at all accepted by most poskim, is construed as mainstream opinion and anything more stringent called "chumrah"!

The bottom line though despite all our external, various levels of committment, essentially each and every one of us wants to approach G-d, and be connected, united with Him. From this angle, chumrah ceases to be "extra" or "frills".It takes it's rightful place as an expression of our desire to be as close to Hashem as possible, instead of measured, minimized, limited steps. And that, after all is the theme of Aseres Yemei Teshuva. "Dirshu Hashem b'himotzoi" "Seek out Hashem, when He is near."

by the way, the expression "hiddur mitzvah brings out the joy and beauty with which we fulfill a mitzvah beyond the minimum.
chumrah probably applies more to a negative mitzvah - lo saaseh, while the latter refers to positive mitzvos - aseh. regardless, chumrah, or hiddur, is simply an expression of our love for doing mitzvos, which is certainly a good, desirable thing.

amother

Mon, Sep 13 2010, 5:57 am

Barbara wrote:

OPINIONATED wrote:

I have friends across the spectrum of Judaism.

Chareidi schools will teach that certain things fall within the realm of Halacha.

Modern Orthodox schools often avoid certain topics because they don't want to offend the parent body.

When someone says she does something because she's MO, most likely it's because she was never taught otherwise.

That's why it's important to judge everyone favorably. I would never tell anyone not to do something if they do it. That's the job of the shul Rabbi.

Ah, yes. You judge everyone favorably. Particularly those poor, deluded Modern Orthodox. Their rabbis are afraid to tell them that they should really be -- well, just like you. Since your rabbis have the monopoly on doing things right.

It cannot POSSIBLY be that there is a difference of opinion. Nooooooooooooooooo. Not at all possible. After all, every rabbi in the Talmud agreed; must be the same now.

As someone who is very close to several rabbis of large MO shuls in large MO communities, I can attest to the fact that there are things they believe are forbidden that they do not speak against because they don't see the point and they need to pick their battles. It is something that these MO rabbis I know struggle with to some degree. I am not talking about things like wearing stockings or not, but other aspects of modest dress that are for the most part considered universal standards-- like mini skirts and shorts above the knee, extremely short sleeves, hair covering (yes, most MO rabbis believe that hair covering in some form is required), wearing a bathing suit in mixed company (ie, mixed swimming), and also other things such as social kissing.

Yes, I am aware that there are MO rabbis who permit many things that most people don't. But I don't think it's so far off to say that a significant percentage of MO people who are doing things outside the halachic norm are not doing so based on a psak or a haskama, rather because this is the way they have always done things, or the it's the way their parents did it, and they never asked otherwise, and nobody told them otherwise, not because the rabbanim are officially in agreement with the practices, but because to them it's a lost cause and they would lose capital in other areas where they can have more of an effect. (And no, I do not mean that they are afraid of losing money and their jobs.)

baba

Mon, Sep 13 2010, 7:05 am

TzenaRena wrote:

Marion wrote:

Let's remember that chumra does NOT equal halacha, shall we?

Ah, but often enough, even if not always the case, that which is relegated to chumrah by those who wish to be more lenient, is actually halacha. And the lenient take on the halacha , which may sometimes be bedieved (valid only after the fact) to the utmost and not at all accepted by most poskim, is construed as mainstream opinion and anything more stringent called "chumrah"!

The bottom line though despite all our external, various levels of committment, essentially each and every one of us wants to approach G-d, and be connected, united with Him. From this angle, chumrah ceases to be "extra" or "frills". It takes it's rightful place as an expression of our desire to be as close to Hashem as possible, instead of measured, minimized, limited steps. And that, after all is the theme of Aseres Yemei Teshuva. "Dirshu Hashem b'himotzoi" "Seek out Hashem, when He is near."

by the way, the expression "hiddur mitzvah brings out the joy and beauty with which we fulfill a mitzvah beyond the minimum.
chumrah probably applies more to a negative mitzvah - lo saaseh, while the latter refers to positive mitzvos - aseh. regardless, chumrah, or hiddur, is simply an expression of our love for doing mitzvos, which is certainly a good, desirable thing.

What's measured, minimized or limited about doing what Hashem asks in stead of what you decided He will like better.
I'm sorry, but your post is just a nice wording of how MO is wrong and actually not as frum, good or Hashem loving as you are because they dont keep your chumrot.

shabbatiscoming

Mon, Sep 13 2010, 7:09 am

baba wrote:

TzenaRena wrote:

Marion wrote:

Let's remember that chumra does NOT equal halacha, shall we?

Ah, but often enough, even if not always the case, that which is relegated to chumrah by those who wish to be more lenient, is actually halacha. And the lenient take on the halacha , which may sometimes be bedieved (valid only after the fact) to the utmost and not at all accepted by most poskim, is construed as mainstream opinion and anything more stringent called "chumrah"!

The bottom line though despite all our external, various levels of committment, essentially each and every one of us wants to approach G-d, and be connected, united with Him. From this angle, chumrah ceases to be "extra" or "frills". It takes it's rightful place as an expression of our desire to be as close to Hashem as possible, instead of measured, minimized, limited steps. And that, after all is the theme of Aseres Yemei Teshuva. "Dirshu Hashem b'himotzoi" "Seek out Hashem, when He is near."

by the way, the expression "hiddur mitzvah brings out the joy and beauty with which we fulfill a mitzvah beyond the minimum.
chumrah probably applies more to a negative mitzvah - lo saaseh, while the latter refers to positive mitzvos - aseh. regardless, chumrah, or hiddur, is simply an expression of our love for doing mitzvos, which is certainly a good, desirable thing.

thank you for saying what I felt from this post baba. I was too coward to write it, but I totally agree with what you wrote, 100%

Inspired

Mon, Sep 13 2010, 7:17 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

baba wrote:

TzenaRena wrote:

Marion wrote:

Let's remember that chumra does NOT equal halacha, shall we?

Ah, but often enough, even if not always the case, that which is relegated to chumrah by those who wish to be more lenient, is actually halacha. And the lenient take on the halacha , which may sometimes be bedieved (valid only after the fact) to the utmost and not at all accepted by most poskim, is construed as mainstream opinion and anything more stringent called "chumrah"!

The bottom line though despite all our external, various levels of committment, essentially each and every one of us wants to approach G-d, and be connected, united with Him. From this angle, chumrah ceases to be "extra" or "frills". It takes it's rightful place as an expression of our desire to be as close to Hashem as possible, instead of measured, minimized, limited steps. And that, after all is the theme of Aseres Yemei Teshuva. "Dirshu Hashem b'himotzoi" "Seek out Hashem, when He is near."

by the way, the expression "hiddur mitzvah brings out the joy and beauty with which we fulfill a mitzvah beyond the minimum.
chumrah probably applies more to a negative mitzvah - lo saaseh, while the latter refers to positive mitzvos - aseh. regardless, chumrah, or hiddur, is simply an expression of our love for doing mitzvos, which is certainly a good, desirable thing.

thank you for saying what I felt from this post baba. I was too coward to write it, but I totally agree with what you wrote, 100%

I agree too, and I'm not MO.
I guess Marion was right to take offense at that wording. I still stand by what I wrote above though.

prettyone

Mon, Sep 13 2010, 11:14 am

bubby wrote:

baba wrote:

bubby wrote:

I think this thread was unnecessary, even though I get what OP means. But it's obviously getting very close to be a bashing MO-fest (if you're all holding back because it's Aserei Y'mei Teshuva, please don't let that stop you) & it's offensive. As you all know, I'm definitely not MO!

Barbara, I liked your first response. Exactly my sentiments.

Thank you.

You're welcome Smile

im happy that you all find what I have to say unnecessary. I appreciate that you are all reading into what I said as an opportunity to bash a certain community. its not possible that I actually wanted an answer.

never mind that many pple can come up with good answers to my question- you chose to play stupid cause it gives you a chance to attack someone.

very nice- have a meaningful Yom Kippur cause your going to need it

prettyone

Mon, Sep 13 2010, 11:17 am

ora_43 wrote:

OP, I don't quite get it. What are you saying would be a better response? People should say "I do that because I hold by rav so-and-so who says that... " or "I do that because my grandfather was from Hungary where the minhag was... " and not just "I'm MO"?

If that's what you're saying I agree. I think it gives the wrong impression when people use "MO" as an explanation in and of itself. It sounds like they're saying, "of course I take the lenient stance on this, I'm MO, that's what we do."

Even if someone doesn't know exactly why they do a certain thing, it still sounds better to say something like, "MO rabbis hold that there's no problem with wearing denim" (or whatever) than just "I do it because I'm MO."

yes thats what im saying.

baba

Mon, Sep 13 2010, 4:01 pm

prettyone wrote:

bubby wrote:

baba wrote:

bubby wrote:

Thank you.

You're welcome Smile

Wow, calm down, this it totally uncalled for and you might want to take up some of your own advice.
I think I understand your question, and it probably came from a different post today, which even I found worded strangely. I'd never say I do xyz because I'm MO in a justifying way. I keep halacha fully and do not feel I need to justify anything.

But yes, some of the posters were starting to turn it into something not very nice on which I and others commented. But again, I dont think most thought the OP was offensive, but it's a dangerous subject here, where as you can see, the hidden bashing wasnt far behind.

PinkFridge

Mon, Sep 13 2010, 4:40 pm

louche wrote:

amother wrote:

Is this the correct attitude? How about "Kol Yisroel areivim ze la'ze"?

Many of us, myself included, would have more respect for the people who try to correct other people's observance under the flag of "kol yisrael arevim" if they were a little more active in helping them out in other tangible ways under the same flag. But when a person's "kol yisrael arevim" manifests itself solely in telling people what they're doing wrong, then I take their "kol yisrael" and change the channel.

"change the channel"
Change the channel??? You see, ladies, MO people even use tamei metaphors!

TzenaRena

Mon, Sep 13 2010, 4:46 pm

Quote:

So lets see, you are writing that I said:
1) a chumrah, or a hiddur is what I decided He will like better.
2)that MO is wrong, and not as frum, good, or Hashem loving as me, TZ.
3) I have chumrot that they don't keep

Did you read through my post? I wrote not a word about myself.

baba wrote:

But yes, some of the posters were starting to turn it into something not very nice on which I and others commented. But again, I dont think most thought the OP was offensive, but it's a dangerous subject here, where as you can see, the hidden bashing wasnt far behind.

hmm baba, who was bashing, and not so hidden?

shabbatiscoming wrote:

thank you for saying what I felt from this post baba. I was too coward to write it, but I totally agree with what you wrote, 100%

maybe you were too aidel, or honest? why regret a good thing?