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Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling

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Isramom8

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 12:15 pm

RR wrote:

It seems you had a great kalla teacher. And I agree that in these things it's a total mother-daughter thing.

I meant that this is what was said to us women trained to be kallah teachers. The teacher of the kallah teachers told us this.

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 12:19 pm

oh - woops. Well, that is something smart that all kalla teacher's should say Wink

Ruchel

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 12:42 pm

marina wrote:

If I'm OP's daughter and I have half a brain, once I find out that kissing is not actually assur, I will start thinking about what else is not actually assur that my parents lied to me about. Shabbos? Kashrus?

Or she'll just think they didn't know what to say, and it's one of those silly lies that don't really matter...

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 12:42 pm

Amother, I just want to say that I totally hear you. It's that type of thing that just comes up before you ever thought out a plan of action, what is right, etc.
But I have to say that your husband is a man. Men in general see these things so differently. (Am I repeating anything anyone said?)

Basically that's why a mother is mechanech her daughter in these very sensitive areas. A mother has the gentle ability and wisdom to give it over in the right way. That's a Jewish mother.
BTW - I'm Chassidish. Lubavitch Chassidish- but I understand where you're coming from and your hesitant approach.

Last edited by RR on Sun, Sep 19 2010, 1:57 pm; edited 2 times in total

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 12:45 pm

Ruchel wrote:

marina wrote:

Or she'll just think they didn't know what to say, and it's one of those silly lies that don't really matter...

Depending on the girl. But most probably she will grow up and realize they were uncomfortable in the topic - not necessarily that they tricked her.

Ruchel

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 12:45 pm

Quote:

coming back with a very distinct smell and smile.

Oy!! I would have been mortified!! did she realize? I hope not.

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 12:46 pm

not sure

relaxed

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 1:04 pm

Oh my.

OP, your initial response was well done (especially on the fly).

However.

Adding lying to the mix changed the whole picture.

I can tell you now that if it would have been me getting mixed messages like that from my parents, I would sooner or later understand that they are not telling me the truth and that they are not the people I should turn to when I need my sensitive questions answered.

I would then find someone (or many someones) who could. My parents would lose my trust at that point. And my trust in them may or may not return at some later point in life, but not before I will have gotten the information I seek from someone else (likely someone completely inappropriate).

Your husband acted emotionally but did not consider the long-term repercussions (that many people have mentioned on this thread). Others are right, you should be the one dealing with discussing such issues with your daughters, not your husband. If she comes to him for questions, then let him refer her to you to discuss. Then no one's undermining anybody.

I sincerely hope that you don't come to regret this approach.

(Btw, I'm chareidi too.)

chocmom

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 1:42 pm

wow. a basically unanimous response spanning 6 pages and the OP won't even consider that there's something to it? Not going to repeat but what everyone else has correctly said but I would have thought that everyone's agreement should provide OP with something to mull over...

amother

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 2:11 pm

Sometimes something that's supposed to be private and is not comes out to the person who viewed it, and probably the person whose privacy was breached, to be pretty disgusting.
While I don't find going to the toilet disgusting, I know everyone does it, etc, do not need therapy to relieve myself, walking in on someone is kind of shocking, as is being walked in on.
While the girl perhaps didn't see anything R-rated, perhaps even if she knew about kissing, etc, she would not have the personality to do it in such an open and loud fashion. Different people are different, different people have more refined views of what they will find beautiful and holy.
I remember as a teenager visiting a maternity hospital, looking at the babies in the nursery, and hearing the most primordial shrieking coming from where I knew the l and d rooms were. I knew all about birth, where babies come from, had seen complete videos of births in school, had seen women in labor,there was nothing at all disgusting about it to me, except those sounds. To me as a teenager, I thought it was absolutely primeval and animalistic. The thought of a grown woman shrieking like that freaked me out, because it wasn't my way of dealing with things, or the way I was used to from the house. To me it symbolized complete loss of control. Now I have no issues with noisy laboring women, btw. :)
While the girl doesn't need to think there's anything wrong with intimacy, she is allowed to know that there is a classy, beautiful, and very private way to do it, and when it's done like that, it's love. It's when the privacy is broken that it may seem cheap and low,precisely because it's supposed to be private.
No need to get the neighbors involved, it was an accident. But for a kid who knew nothing, it might be kinda freaky to find out like that, and may need reassurance that there is indeed some normality to it all.

5S5Sr7z3

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 2:15 pm

chocmom wrote:

No, because she agrees with her husband that it's okay to lie.

OP, nobody like to think of such situations, but what would happen if your DD, who now thinks kissing is disgusting and 'not b'seder', ever walks in on you and DH???? She will then know that not only did you lie to her, you are also doing disgusting, assur, and not b'seder things....

Ruchel

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 2:17 pm

One of my gyns (a lady), as a student, went to a hospital. It was the summer and the windows were opened. She heard shrieking from outside (no epidural at the time, she's an old timer), she totally freaked out and told her then fiancé she's never going to have children. She went on to have 1/2/3 I'm not sure.

mama mia

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 2:48 pm

amother wrote:

YESHASettler wrote:

And finally... please, PLEASE tell me you've told her about her period already!

Sure have. Ages ago.

YeshaSettler wrote:

Intimacy is completely natural and accepted within marriage of all branches of Orthodoxy. There's no reason to tell her otherwise.

Says you.

Here's the followup.
She ran to tell my dh about it this morning before I woke up. He told her that it's ossur and not done and that the neighbors are not beseder and that the only reason I said that it is done is because I didn't want to say bad things about the neighbors and that I didn't know what to say. She asked me if that's true and I said yes.

I forgot to mention in my original post that she was able to hear them kissing all the way up to our balcony. She was so grossed out by what she saw that she was physically nauseous. She couldn't eat the food I made for her because of it. My husband says that the mere fact that she got such a shock from what she saw is enough of a reason to make sure she gets back on track and the only way to get her back to her equilibrium is to let her think that it's wrong. He says it's allowed by halacha to lie about this. I said that she'll eventually know I'm a liar and he said that the important thing here is not if I'm a liar or not - it's her state of mind. I asked what about all those 12 year old girls mentioned on this thread who hear everything from their friends. He said that hearing is nothing like seeing. What she saw was very, very explicit. We all know that once you've seen something it never really goes away. She got a big, big shock.

Summary: I am fine with the way my husband handled it and I have alot of confidence in his ability to educate my kids the right way. When it comes to chinuch issues he always does the right thing.

I am so glad I'm married to him.

Thanks for your support. Maybe I am a great mom.

WOAH. I think you need to get real hadracha on this one in order to backtrack because from what I've learned from Ultra Frum professionals is NOT to lie this way to kids.

I know a girl who DID NOT KNOW until she was TOLD BY HER KALLAH TEACHER and she COULD NOT STOP CRYING thinking of what she would HAVE TO DO with her husband to be. She was not at all excited and had no idea that she was supposed to even be attracted to him.

IloveHashem613

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 3:35 pm

chocmom wrote:

I know, right?????????!!!!!!!!!!!

Apple pie

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 3:48 pm

OP, I'm really interested to know what is the source for saying that's it's halachically okay to lie in such a case...

Can you please ask your husband?

5S5Sr7z3

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 4:17 pm

amother wrote:

My 12 year old Charedi daughter came in to me this evening and asked me if husbands and wives are allowed to hug and kiss. shock

Turns out she was standing on our porch and speaking with her friend who lives 2 floors down. The apartment directly under us has a newly married couple living in it. Their blinds were completely open and dd watched for a few minutes while the couple made out on the couch. Obviously I'll never know just how much she saw but she was in total shock that this couple were "behaving like chilonim" and she was nauseous over the whole thing. Needless to say, my dd is very sheltered and could not imagine that anyone Charedi would do something so disgusting!

I am curious about how Charedi (Litvish or Chassidish) mothers would deal with this.
FS -What do you think?

Oh, and trust me, seeing a frum couple making out is not 'explicit'. Shocking for a sheltered girl, sure, but not explicit. Explicit would be catching a frum couple having zex in the woods of a local county park... (Lol true story...)

OP, I would love to know which halacha your husband was referring to that its okay to lie about such things for chinuch. Please, I would really like for my husband to look that one up (perhaps at least 6 pages of posters are doing it all wrong since no one's agreeing with you that it's okay to lie about such issues /sarcasm over/)

Sherri

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 4:40 pm

IYamWhoIYam wrote:

Oh my. Were you the lucky girl who saw? shock

5S5Sr7z3

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 4:45 pm

Sherri wrote:

IYamWhoIYam wrote:

Oh my. Were you the lucky girl who saw? shock

This happened recently. Now THAT was something I wqas trying to prevent my kids to see... We beat it out of those woods real fast.

amother

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 5:24 pm

Apple pie wrote:

OP, I'm really interested to know what is the source for saying that's it's halachically okay to lie in such a case...

Can you please ask your husband?

He doesn't remember exactly where but it is brought down in the gemora that there are 3 things one is permitted to lie about. One is s*x, the second is something about saying that a particular host is a great host, so that a zillion people don't go to that particular host and the third he can't remember.

As far as 6 pages of posters and all that, it really doesn't interest me. Doesn't mean that 6 pages of posters are right!

sequoia

Sun, Sep 19 2010, 5:25 pm

That's for your OWN privacy in the face of busybodies.

NOT chinuch purposes.

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