Attend wedding, bring no gift/check-- why is this ok?

amother

Mon, Oct 25 2010, 10:03 am

DH comes from a very large extended family. We can't always afford to give a gift for the wedding. This coming month, for example, there will be three - all first cousins. Which one should we just go to dancing for? Tuition comes before gifts, and it would be insulting if we didn't come to the wedding.

I remember one year where there were 6 consecutive Simchas in DH's family. I simply couldn't afford even $18 for each. We gave some, then couldn't anymore. About a year later, we gave baby gifts (B"H) to the ones where we hadn't given a wedding gift.

freidasima

Mon, Oct 25 2010, 10:06 am

I'm from EY and part of the system (and agree with the system) that it is totally and absolutely crass to attend a chasunah and not give something. It is very much quid pro quo, not even if you don't invite the entire community, it's just not done here to go and not give something. Often people even call up the hall to find out how much a place costs in order to cover costs! But even if you can't afford that much, there is something you can do.

What's mesameach about just showing up? For that the chossen-kallah could have just invited a bunch of people from a Jewish soup kitchen and given them dinner as a mitzvah! What's mesameach about dancing? It's nice but how would most people feel being invited to a chasuneh and then being offered sponge cake and pitchers of ice water and that's that? After all, a chasuneh is about being mesameach, right? Not about the food....

But just like most posters would look askance at a chossen-kallah who would invite people from two hours away to show up for sponge cake and water and just dance...I at least look askance at people who show up emptyhanded or don't send something before or after.

You don't have money? Make a homemade card offering your services for something to the chossen kallah. You had the time and the dress to go to the chasuneh? You paid carfare to go? If you were really poor you wouldn't even have the carfare! So there is almost always something you can do. Heck, lets take a really wacko scenario. The chossen-kallah are moving to a different country right after the chasuneh and there is nothing that you can even offer them as services....so write a card that in honor of their chasuneh you are going to give five hours of chessed in their zechus over the next month/year/whatever...doesn't cost a penny, and it's a mitzva for you and for them....and it shows the new couple that someone is thinking of them more than for just the meal they are getting for free (because it's for free if you aren't bringing a gift, right?)

In my world to come, eat, dance and leave without giving SOMETHING, you are just crass.

nylon

Mon, Oct 25 2010, 10:10 am

I think that by saying "if you can't give a gift, only come to dancing" is implicitly endorsing the pay-to-play idea. I always give a gift and consider it part of the cost of attendance, but I dislike that mentality a lot. You want to consider it rude, gauche, poor manners--fine. I do think it's generally accepted that the polite thing to do at a wedding is to give a gift, according to your means and relationship to the couple. But I think "pay your plate" is crass--it gets more so when you start giving according to the expense of the wedding, but IMO it's only marginally better if you don't. I know that in Israel, people do it that way, but this isn't Israel.

batya_d

Mon, Oct 25 2010, 10:14 am

ChossidMom wrote:

OP, Mazel tov on your marriage!

I'm curious. You say that if someone is not bringing a gift they should RSVP that they will attend but not sit. Why?

In Israel it very often happens that people cannot afford to give gifts and don't. They come. They sit and hopefully enjoy. Why should they feel that they can come only for the chuppa or the dancing?

What's the connection between the oven dish or the serving dish and the price of the meal?

Thanks, ChossidMom. That's a great question, because it's another cultural issue with weddings. Before becoming religious, I had never heard of the "dancing only" or "chuppah only" concept-- in secular circles, you're either a full seated guest, or nothing. It seemed downright rude to tell someone they're half a guest! In the end, we did not invite anyone for dancing only, but some RSVP'd this way.

So my confused answer, ChossidMom, is that both concepts are foreign to me-- not giving a gift, and the "dancing only". They seem like they could go together and provide a solution. That's all.

Tova

Mon, Oct 25 2010, 10:19 am

Here’s my response. Disclaimer – I have not read the other replies to the thread.

Weddings of friends/classmates of mine I participated in the collection for the shower, so that was my/our gift.

We are not old enough for our friends/contemporaries to be making weddings, so the few weddings we are invited to now are either – relatives (cousins, etc.), younger guys in my husband’s chabura or that come to him to talk in learning, neighbors/ people I’ve babysat for, etc.

For relatives all the siblings chip in and get something.

Guys in my husband’s chabura want him there as the rosh chabura – it’s more they feel it’s an “honor” for him to attend. Or they feel hakaras hatov for times talking in learning, etc.

Third category I’ve occasionally given something if I’ve had it around (a brand new sterling silver challah knife, etc.) but for the most part no, these baalei simcha see us as a “young” family, we are in kollel b”H, and we know that they invited us because they really really want us to be there to join in the simcha. We have a neighbor that made a chassuna, and said to my husband many times “We hope you can come, etc.” When we have that type of relationship, hergesh, etc. NO we feel it is almost inappropriate for us to buy a gift – like they really wouldn’t want us to. We are not contemporaries, if you will. And yes, if I felt otherwise we would not attend (hasn’t happened so far!). Oh – and they keep inviting us for future simchos so we are obviously all on the same page!

I plan on iy”H making beautiful but simple and above all MEANINGFUL simchos when the time comes, and I could care less what we get back in return – so it goes both ways – I don’t not give but then expect to receive.

batya_d

Mon, Oct 25 2010, 10:19 am

nylon wrote:

I agree with your first line. I think this comes back to my reply to ChossidMom, in which both concepts are equally foreign to me, adding to my confusion. You're right that providing that as a solution is at odds with my maintaining that it's a matter of etiquette. I'm seriously just confused.

freidasima

Mon, Oct 25 2010, 10:22 am

The concept you mention Ruchel is well known even when there are a lot of people to dance. In Israeli simchas there are two tables set up at the entrance, usually with fruit and cake and drinks for the young people, no chairs, no sitting, just a nice buffet for them that costs often a fifth or even a tenth of a place setting.

these are called "samchem" tables, because its' for the dozens, sometimes hundreds (!) of young people from the yeshiva, the school etc. who come after the chuppah and yichud period (usually about an hour after the chuppa is over) to be mesameach the chossen-kallah.

They don't bring gifts of course, it's a lovely minhog, and a way to have very freilich dancing where the young people don't have to feel obliged to bring anything.

Just the other day my youngest daughter comes home after a long day's work and says "mommy I'm going out, not eating" and I say "what?" ...turns out that a girl who has no one is getting married at the hall nearby and one of my daughter's friends heard about it and organized 20 girls from her old high school class (we are talking six years out of high school, mind you) who are still single (big class, only half married as of now) to go and dance with the kallah. They didn't bring anything, they didn't eat, came to be mesameach and left. That's acceptable, even here in EY.

greenfire

Mon, Oct 25 2010, 10:24 am

do you do the same by your shabbos table ?! please come for a seuda - but if you don't bring wine and/or a box of chocolates - how dare you accept the invitation ...

here I'll be the one to answer you for really - I mostly don't go to weddings ... but if it's someone I know and someone I'd like to say mazel tov to honour her grand day - I come ... and NO I don't bring a present because the way I see it $18 to me is more like $1,800 (and either way would seem measly to a person counting their gifts ... what is wrong with being happy for someone and sharing in the simcha ... do any of you realize how much food goes into the garbage after a wedding - how many people rsvp "yes" and don't show up ... (I never reply and consider it a double mitzva including baal tashchis if I can make it Twisted Evil

)

besides I agree with fox - no matter what one does there are those who won't appreciate it & complain ... BOO HOO !!!

Mrs. XYZ

Mon, Oct 25 2010, 10:24 am

Quote:

Is the system also so strict in the ultra chareidi world? I didnt think so.

In our family its accepted that first cousins dont give gifts. We have a large family and many of them are young kollel couples who really cant afford to keep giving gifts at every wedding.

aidelmaidel

Mon, Oct 25 2010, 10:40 am

I'll preface this by saying I'm also a BT and have been to many weddings, non-Jewish and Jewish, frum and not frum.

I don't really know all your circumstances, but the whole idea that someone *has* to give a gift to eat at a wedding just seems completely antithetical to the point of a chasunah.

I've been to chasunas that cost $250,000, and to chasunas made for less then $10,000. Heck, this summer I helped to make a wedding on basically nothing. Everything came together in the last three days, but maybe we spent in total $2000 TOPS for EVERYTHING (clothing, food, music, papergoods, etc)? And there were easily 100 people there?

Certainly at the wedding that cost $250k there was an expectation to give a gift. And at the wedding that cost $2000 I don't know that anyone gave a gift beyond the immediate family members.

The point behind a chasuna (or a wedding if you're secular), is to celebrate the commitment two people are making to each other. Expecting a gift is equivalent in my mind to an admission ticket. While I certainly do try to give a gift to the people we are close with or are truly needy, I certainly don't think my "seat" rides on it.

(This is the generic YOU here): If you can't afford to feed 400 people or 100 or even 20 people, then make a wedding you can afford. If you believe that people should give a gift equivalent to the cost of their meal, then please state so explicitly. It's like I've said elsewhere in regards to loaning money to relatives - don't give money you can't afford to not get back. If you are going to be upset and resent that people didn't give you gifts and yet ate at your simcha, then be more explicit in your invitation that you expect a gift and if they won't give one they shouldn't come. And if you won't or can't do that because it makes you feel uncomfortable, then certainly you can imagine how uncomfortable it is for those of us who think that a chasunah is to share in the simcha of the couple instead of funding their bank account.

You can read all sorts of situations at dear prudence http://www.slate.com/id/3531/landing/1 where people are miffed that they did not receive gifts, and prudie's responses to them.

All that being said, I generally only check off and "eat" at weddings where I am very close with one of the families/chosson/kallah, OR if I have to travel outside of my neighborhood. Some people I will ask if they want us to come for the whole thing or just dancing. And Some people I just check off dancing and if I can make it there I only go for dancing.

And there are gifts that are non-monetary! We make sheva brochas, shabbos kallahs, aufrufs, host out of town family members for the week, etc. Certainly a gift doesn't need to come in an envelope or be gift wrapped to be a gift.

aidelmaidel

Mon, Oct 25 2010, 10:46 am

batya_d wrote:

So my confused answer, ChossidMom, is that both concepts are foreign to me-- not giving a gift, and the "dancing only". They seem like they could go together and provide a solution. That's all.

I think this custom became an outcroping of the larger communities. For many people it is impossible to make a wedding where everyone they want to invite can sit down and eat. AND, and it's a big AND, once you have a growing family it is almost impossible to get out of the house for every single chasuna to be there in time for the meal, much less the chuppah. People know they can't get out of the house until the kids are alseep and settled and why should the baal simcha waste money on food that they won't be there to eat? Better to just come for dessert and dancing and be b'simcha.

batya_d

Mon, Oct 25 2010, 10:49 am

greenfire wrote:

do you do the same by your shabbos table ?! please come for a seuda - but if you don't bring wine and/or a box of chocolates - how dare you accept the invitation ...

Do you really think the shabbos table is an apt comparison to a wedding?

Quote:

here I'll be the one to answer you for really - I mostly don't go to weddings ... but if it's someone I know and someone I'd like to say mazel tov to honour her grand day - I come ... and NO I don't bring a present because the way I see it $18 to me is more like $1,800 (and either way would seem measly to a person counting their gifts ... what is wrong with being happy for someone and sharing in the simcha ... do any of you realize how much food goes into the garbage after a wedding - how many people rsvp "yes" and don't show up ... (I never reply and consider it a double mitzva including baal tashchis if I can make it Twisted Evil

)

besides I agree with fox - no matter what one does there are those who won't appreciate it & complain ... BOO HOO !!!

Ok.

mominlkwd

Mon, Oct 25 2010, 11:07 am

I agree with the OP that it is a bit tactless not to bring a gift to a wedding that you eat at. I remember when my sister got married and she was shocked at how many people didn't send anything. She told me that she paid $15-20 a meal for them and they couldn't even send a nice card? She is right. I explained to her that frum people don't look at it that way, they are invited to a wedding and they go or don't go a gift doesn't enter the equation a lot of times but she was pretty horrified. She is MO and she would never attend a sit down affair without a gift. I also look at it that way, me and my DH don't attend many social events but if we do we always send or bring something. We do exclude immediate family through first cousins since there is usually a big gift sent together.

amother

Mon, Oct 25 2010, 11:08 am

freidasima wrote:

You don't have money? Make a homemade card offering your services for something to the chossen kallah.

Other people do not know my financial situation. I would be embarrassed to make a card like that and it wouldn't be well-received.

freidasima wrote:

You had the time and the dress to go to the chasuneh? You paid carfare to go? If you were really poor you wouldn't even have the carfare!

I make the time when I think the baalei simcha want me there. My clothing is from a gemach.
If I don't get a ride, I don't go. I don't have the carfare.

I guess besides being poor of funds, I'm also crass. But I will definitely reconsider going to simchas in the future.

chocolate moose

Mon, Oct 25 2010, 11:10 am

I can only answer what I do, whether it's right or wrong.

We received so few gifts for our wedding that we didn't even order thank you notes; I just bought a few cards at a stationery store.

As a newly married I did give gifts for all simchas, and I quickly ran up a credit card bill so high that Lady Liberty could look up to it !

So, I had to cut somewhere. I have noticed that if I give a small gift, it's usually remembered as bad. I don't want that.

I don't give Bar MItzvah gifts unless it's someone we see every day or are very very close to. It's not hachnosses kallah and it's not bikur choilim, so, in general, those gifts are off the table.

If a friend has a baby, I generally help with the sholom zochor or make a dinner. Other times I give a gift. I have also had my gift returned, saying that "she didn't use it and has so much stuff already".

I don't always give an upsherenish gift either; I try to find something appropriate but if they have half a dozen boys, it's not easy. And not all moms appreicate a gift, saying "they have so much stuff in the house already."

I don't like to give money as a gift. I find that my money goes a lot farther - and looks a lot better - if I spent it at a discount store and wrap the item up fancy. A little goes a long way.

Lastly, there are those that go to several simchas a night, and I can't imagine what they do.

Inspired

Mon, Oct 25 2010, 11:11 am

I think less than a quarter of the quests at my weddinq qave qifts. It never occurred to me to see a problem.

When we've had no money for a qift it didnt occur to me to not attend a simcha of someone I am close to because I lacked the means to qive a qift. I find cards a waste. I was there to share the simcha, thats whats counts.
My son felt the same at his bar mitzva. he wanted to share his simcha, he didnt care if anyone broht a qift or not.

ita with fox.

amother who said its "very rude" what is a poor person supposed to do? Not attend any simchas of close friends? I find that attitude bizarre. Not Judaism at all. Terrible actually.
my jee key is broken...