Attend wedding, bring no gift/check-- why is this ok?

Depressed

Mon, Nov 29 2010, 2:33 pm

freidasima wrote:

To add to Shalhevet's question, I learned that chessed is not a mitzva in itself but more like an accompanyment and a by-product.

From what I was taught chessed is simply kindness. And everything in the world should be done with kindness (bad English translation, Shal help me out here, you're the professional translator, maybe I mean compassion actually).

So, it's like breathing. What we call in hebrew tnai mukdam vehechrechi aval lo tnai maspik. A necessary prerequisite but not enough. It's like background music which should be there. Not even mentioned except when the music suddenly gets turned off and you realize that something which should always be there is missing.

Depressed, I repeat, you keep talking about what we call here "chessed PROJECTS", not just human kindness which is supposed to be a priori in every single thing you so, hence it's not a mitzva. It's just like breathing . Now what in the world does that have to do with not keeping shabbos? There is absolutely no orthodox interpretation of any group, from the most dati light or dati blai to the most shtark neturei karta or reb aralech who say that you can drive to shul on shabbos. That is no interpretation it is an aveiro across the board.

However when you quote me the Chofetz Chaim, with all due honor and respect to him, nevertheless within the orthodox gamut not everyone accetps the chofetz chaim as their posek or his interpretations of what is or is not a mitzva (as in the taryag ones, not a derivative). There are others who will disagree with him.

But as far as I know, except for a machlokes over one mitzva (I don't even remember which) across the board everyone in the orthodox world accepts the Rambam's list of 613. And chessed as far as I know isn't on it as a separate mitzva.

So Depressed what DO you mean by chessed?

I asked someone today, and he told me Rambam Chapter 14 Hilcos Avelim, 'Mitzvas Aseh Shel Gemilas Chasodim ain lo shiur'..

Maybe this is just playing semantics, but between your mother, children, grandchildren, clients, it sounds like you do a tremendous amount of chesed, so why did you say I dont do chesed I write checks... Maybe, you meant, I dont do 'chesed projects', I write checks.. Ok mi faux paus.

If I could ask one thing, if chesed. kindness, compassion, whatever you want to call it is second nature, in the air you breathe, I really dont understand the whole "cover your plate " trip. If someone needs the check to make the affaiir, dont make such a fancy affair, or finance it. If you can easily afford it, but its just the principle of it, everyone must cover their plate, thats truely meeyus..

Here in Southern NJ, I spoke to affluent chasidishe ppl, Yeshivishe families, wealthy Teaneck MOs, lower middle class MOs, and non jews, and they all thought it was repulsive..

freidasima

Mon, Nov 29 2010, 3:04 pm

Depressed it's a socially contrived act between equals similar to in any society.
If you aren't part of that society you think it's wierd.
If you are not an arab and you are told that everyone eats from one communal plate taking bread and wiping the same big hummus plate and putting it in their mouth and then double dipping you think it's disgusting.
To the arabs brought up that way it is sharing and totally normal. Separate plates are a sign of not "breaking bread" literally and a sign of removing yourself from your fellow man.

You make a large affair because a chasuneh is not a private act but a communal one, hence you invite your entire larger community. However most people can't afford to do so without help or if they do they can't have enough money to start off the young couple and give them money to begin life, buy appliances (no renting them here), buy a trousseu or a downpayment for an apartment.

So either you start your young couple off and shtell a chuppa with a minyan or you make a community affair, everyone covers their plate and some more and the "more" goes to the young couple and the money you save goes to the young couple as well. Or the whole check goes to the young couple but you the parents can't afford to help them, as you pay for the wedding

And as marriage is a communal affair and your new couple becomes part of a community, you must invite the community otherwise it makes a travesty out of a marriage, like "Breaking bread" in separate plates which denotes separating yourself from your fellow diners, not joining with them as any good arab knows should be done at a meal, get it? Socially contrived.

So your New Jersey crowd thought it was "repulsive" but why do they not think it is repulsive to wear lipstick (which eskimos think is worse than putting bear grease on your lips)? or someone elses hair on their head (which some frum societies think is worse than wearing nothing on your head)? or for women to wear dresses without pantaloons underneath (which traditional yemenites think is totally untzinus)? Or to wear white which is the color of death (in other societies such as in the far east)?

It's all socially contrived. Don't judge us. You may be Jewish you may be frum but you sure aren't part of US. And we aren't part of you. Not nice to use the word "repulsive". There are very few things in life which are physically repulsive and to put the concept of giving a check to cover the cost of your meal in that category is a travesty of things in life which are TRULY repulsive.

freidasima

Mon, Nov 29 2010, 3:24 pm

But they do Ruchel. Only when they lived "somewhere else" it wasn't necessary as it is today in EY to help a young couple to the degree it is necessary today. In the shtetl you invited the WHOLE shtel to the chasuneh, but...you also didn't have to buy appliances for the young couple,they often moved in to the family home and continued living there meaning you didn't have to help them with an apartment or to help pay their rent, and when people got married parents weren't supporting them full time. You didn't get married when you were "children" there was no army so that young men at 22 didn't even have a profession, if your father was a tailor you had learned tailoring already and were working...and there young men who couldn't afford to didn't sit and learn forever.

Same in north african communities where you definitely invited not only your whole hamula but also all the neighbors etc. however again, the prices of wedddings were different and it wasn't necessary to set people up as is done in the latter half of the 20th century.

Hence it WAS done there and people were expected to bring gifts which helped the young couple start off. Pillows, blankets, pots, food, etc. not money as it wasn't socially accepted to give money as a wedding present either in the orient or in the shtel 100 years ago. But all that changed. The only thing which DIDNT change was the concept of inviting the whole community and of marriage being a communal affair. It basically changed only in two places, in the United States and Western europe which came about because of the dissolution of the concept of all encompassing "community" as was known in oriental countries or eastern europe. When those communities were destroyed or were dissolved as in leaving for other countries, the concept of community remained in force in EY.

Fox

Mon, Nov 29 2010, 7:22 pm

I promised myself I'd stay out of this thread, but I'm having a lot of difficulty accepting the double-standard and the jumps in topic and logic.

freidasima wrote:

The only thing which DIDNT change was the concept of inviting the whole community and of marriage being a communal affair. It basically changed only in two places, in the United States and Western europe which came about because of the dissolution of the concept of all encompassing "community" as was known in oriental countries or eastern europe. When those communities were destroyed or were dissolved as in leaving for other countries, the concept of community remained in force in EY.

Back on page 1 of this 25-page thread, I indicated that the practices in the U.S. and in EY are diametrically different. We've now argued at length and with great insult about the historical and economic reasons for this, but you seem to have reached the same conclusion I did: giving a gift for a chassunah tends to be a mandatory part of participation in EY, and tends not to be considered mandatory in the U.S. People in both the U.S. and EY have weighed in on the exceptions to these general rules or expectations.

freidasima wrote:

Don't judge us. You may be Jewish you may be frum but you sure aren't part of US. And we aren't part of you. Not nice to use the word "repulsive". There are very few things in life which are physically repulsive and to put the concept of giving a check to cover the cost of your meal in that category is a travesty of things in life which are TRULY repulsive.

If this were a non-judgmental discussion of "some people do one thing; some do another," everyone would have packed up long ago and moved on to whether women should ride in the back of the bus, or whatever new hot topic has everyone in a lather.

But, in fact, this discussion is not about (a) whether or not this is indeed the custom in your circles in EY -- we believe you that it is; or (b) people in EY and the U.S. have different customs in this regard and everyone should be as sensitive as possible to that fact.

You've made it clear through a number of posts that you wholeheartedly support this system from an objective standpoint and believe it to be good and appropriate. In fact, your support of this system goes far, far beyond the usual evaluation of social contrivances, which generally include at least a nod to the fact that they might have limitations -- as in, "Well, it's not a perfect system, but it works as well or better than anything else" or "Yes, there are problems, but the system developed in response to particular historical situations."

Having mounted a defense of the system of chassunah-funding separated from its historical and cultural contexts -- and refusing to add even the slightest modifying caveat -- you cannot ask us not to judge. We are not judging you; we are evaluating the appropriateness and applicability of the system outside the narrow group in which you live. Saying "please be nonjudgmental about customs different than your own" requires you to play by the same rules -- which means refraining from advocating one system over another. You can say, "people in my circles do X"; you cannot say, "people in my circles do X and that is the best way to do things." Once you make the latter argument, you've lost the right to cry foul when your values are challenged.

Ultimately, I sense this is about much more than wedding gifts. There are undercurrents pertaining to divisions in Israeli society and resentments between those living in EY and those in the diaspora. It's interesting and instructive that these tensions come out over comparatively minor matters: whether or not a wedding gift is required. Like so many simmering disagreements, the pot boils over not because of the major issues, but when the "heat" is turned up over the smaller ones.

Fox

Mon, Nov 29 2010, 7:40 pm

sequoia wrote:

Fox, what you're saying is equivalent to "you can have your opinions, but you cannot believe they are right," which is obviously a contradiction.

No, what I'm saying is as follows:

If you present something as right, you cannot answer objections by saying, 'Well, you have to respect the way we do things.'"" You must defend it on its own merits.

In other words,

Argument #1 is that every community has its customs -- right, wrong, or a little of each. To be a part of that community means engaging in these customs to a certain extent, regardless of their objective merit. If this is the point you wish to make, then you can legitimately ask everyone to refrain from analyzing the objective merit of said customs. The implicit agreement is that the conversation is simply about identifying such customs, not advocating their value.

Argument #2 is that some customs are objectively superior. If this is your argument, you must present evidence to that end as well as answer reasonable objections. Having made this your argument, you cannot suddenly shift gears and retreat back to a "live and let live" response as if your point had been Argument #1.

This, BTW, is why most of us are loathe to make Argument #2 about anything! It's almost impossible to answer objections to most customs and practices, and eventually you find yourself back at Argument #1.

Depressed

Mon, Nov 29 2010, 8:34 pm

Fox, what you are pointing out is all par for the course. Back on page 12, when I asked for one Rov that condones a certasin view, the whole conversation went silent, and then went off on a wild unrelated tangent.

Then FS, said we dont do chesed we write checks. When that was challenged, she danced and danced, and came up with a whole stickel Torah, that she meant 'projects' . Because simple chesed, was a given because thats just second nature, given Israelis are such angelic creatures.

FS.... Let me see if I understand this clearly,

Scenario 1.... Tzvi is backpacking thru Europe, ends up in Israel and winds up in Ohr Someach. He becomes friends with Chaim. Chaim, a Yerulshami or Bnei Brak Charedi gets married in the Tel Aviv Sheraton or the Dan in Haifa or Bais Y Hayashon Hall in Jerusalem. Tzvi comes, doesnt bring anything, or perhaps a sefer. Everyone is ecstaticly happy to see Tzvi and thank him profusely for the sefer...

Scenario 2...... Jeff is touring Israel, checking out the T Aviv nightlife. He ends up in a Moshav and becomes religious, he meets Aitan on a Tiyul. Aitan lives in Freeda Sima's charming lil town. Aitan gets married and invites Jeff. Jeff comes to the wedding to chill, and do the whole experience... He doesnt bring anything or perhaps he gives Aitan a photo-mug with a picture from the Tiyul.. Everyone is pissed at Jeff...

shalhevet

Tue, Nov 30 2010, 2:54 am

Depressed wrote:

No, you kept insisting people don't do chessed (and you brought us quotes how FS - and maybe me too, I don't remember - are wicked, wicked people and are just giving excuses like those who were mechalel Shabbos in America - because we don't do chessed for people outside our immediate families and neighbours. You were the one equating the mitzva of chessed with chessed "projects" for strangers.

Quote:

Scenario 1.... Tzvi is backpacking thru Europe, ends up in Israel and winds up in Ohr Someach. He becomes friends with Chaim. Chaim, a Yerulshami or Bnei Brak Charedi gets married in the Tel Aviv Sheraton or the Dan in Haifa or Bais Y Hayashon Hall in Jerusalem. Tzvi comes, doesnt bring anything, or perhaps a sefer. Everyone is ecstaticly happy to see Tzvi and thank him profusely for the sefer...

OK, you wrote the funniest post today on imamother. Are you serious?

Fox, although I disagree with a lot of what FS wrote on this thread, I think you are wrong about her praising her culture proving anything. when you live in a particular culture, you live in it, and it seems the right way to behave - no one can really objectively look at anything, because we all see it through the eyes of our culture.

Tablepoetry

Tue, Nov 30 2010, 3:26 am

Depressed wrote:

I agree with Shalhavet. That is funny! No Bnei Brak Charedi is getting married at the Sheraton, believe you me.

As for Jeff -- if he's an outsider, people know he's an outsider. No one will be 'pissed' at him (language I don't usually use, but nevermind....). They might laugh at those chutznikim kamtzanim or something, but no one will be angry, because they will assume he is just totally out of it. They will assume he has not yet become one of 'Them'.

I'm with FriedaSima. I like the current system. It has a few disadvantages - some very social people get invited to lots of weddings in 'season', and it ends up costing them a pretty penny. Nothing's perfect. But on the whole, I FAR FAR prefer our big Israeli weddings, where everyone shows up, and everyone is free to sit next to his old childhood buddy that he hasn't seen since grade 3, to the small formal affairs which are common abroad, where you show up and get a little card telling you to go sit next to your old high school teacher or your sil or whoever and if you show up with one extra child you throw their whole seating arrangement off.

I still don't see the problem. We like our set-up, we're happy with it. You like your set-up. C'est ca. Why does everyone feel the need to pour their wrath on the Israeli way of doing things? As has been said a million times before, it's just a cultural norm (FS explained it best by comparing it to an Arab breaking bread). Chances are most imamothers contemplating aliya won't encounter this anyway, as it seems anglos like to stick to anglo areas, or settle in small yeshuvim where weddings are simpler affairs.

zipporah

Tue, Nov 30 2010, 4:21 am

Tablepoetry wrote:

I'm with FriedaSima. I like the current system. It has a few disadvantages - some very social people get invited to lots of weddings in 'season', and it ends up costing them a pretty penny. Nothing's perfect. But on the whole, I FAR FAR prefer our big Israeli weddings, where everyone shows up, and everyone is free to sit next to his old childhood buddy that he hasn't seen since grade 3, to the small formal affairs which are common abroad, where you show up and get a little card telling you to go sit next to your old high school teacher or your sil or whoever and if you show up with one extra child you throw their whole seating arrangement off.

I still don't see the problem. We like our set-up, we're happy with it. You like your set-up. C'est ca. Why does everyone feel the need to pour their wrath on the Israeli way of doing things? As has been said a million times before, it's just a cultural norm (FS explained it best by comparing it to an Arab breaking bread). Chances are most imamothers contemplating aliya won't encounter this anyway, as it seems anglos like to stick to anglo areas, or settle in small yeshuvim where weddings are simpler affairs.

I think the complaints stem from calling your way "Israeli", when as noted, most of the Anglos living or contemplating living in Israel don't do things that way and this is an Anglo board. And also from FS saying "don't come here if you don't do things my way." Once I got a list of where "your Israel" was, it didn't matter to me, because I don't live like that and the likelihood that I'm being invited to a wedding like that is pretty slim. But I guess it's good to know in case I move closer to the Mercaz and maybe interact with people like that more.

The original OP asked why someone would come without bringing a gift, and why it was OK. I don't know how she meant it to sound, but I took it as being more concerned about the gift than the guest. She asked a question and got several answers from a differing perspective. If everyone is respecting everybody else, then that should be enough. Give the person the benefit of the doubt that they don't follow your rules (I don't know if it was a community rule since she's in the US and I haven't seen a list of where this is common practice in America), but don't insult people that your way is the only way or even the best way for everyone else, like saying "no one is making you come here".

Tablepoetry

Tue, Nov 30 2010, 4:31 am

zipporah wrote:

Tablepoetry wrote:

Maybe it's overgeneralizing to say it's the Israeli way, since there are several communities (charedi, anglo) with different customs. Still, MOST Israelis live in non-charedi urban areas.

I would never tell anyone not to come because of one custom or another (and FS explained the reasoning for that comment). There is a lot of diversity here, and most people can find their niche somewhere, be it in a metropilitan area or on a small hilltop.

zipporah

Tue, Nov 30 2010, 4:47 am

Tablepoetry wrote:

zipporah wrote:

Tablepoetry wrote:

Maybe it's overgeneralizing? These posts on this board aren't geared towards most Israelis. They're geared towards English speaking religious women and their families. Most Israelis aren't frum either. So, to tell us what most Israelis do is a little disingenuous. Better to say "if you will be living in this type of community" be prepared for "x", and then give an example of the community.

Tablepoetry

Tue, Nov 30 2010, 7:57 am

We will have to agree to disagree, Zipporah. Or maybe it's just semantics here.

The bare fact is that MOST Israelis do adhere to this check-as-wedding-gift custom. MOST Israelis live in towns and cities, are secular or DL or in between, and some charedim do this too. So it's not at all misleading to say this is an Israeli thing, just like it's not misleading to say big weddings are Israeli, or talking 'doogree' (straight to the point) is Israeli, or doing sponja is Israeli. Even though not EVERYONE does this, and maybe Israeli imamothers never do any of the above. That's besides the point. The point is, these are habits that characterize MOST of the Israeli population.

I never said all imamothers in Israel should be giving a check. I said, most Israelis do. This is Israeli behaviour. There are jokes about it. There was actually a whole page devoted to satirizing it in last Friday's Yediot Achronot. It's part of Israeli culture, like or not.

So I have no idea why it's misleading to say it's Israeli.