Do You Potch?! For Mothers of Children Ages 6-11 ONLY!

Leora2

Sat, Jul 11 2015, 11:52 am

I appreciate all of your concern. I was raised with spankings as the usual punishment until I left my parents' home to get married. I was spanked probably 4-5 times over my teenage years. On the tush. A lot harder then I potch my kids, sometimes with things other then my parents' hands and with a lot less routine or order. I survived. I never repeated the behavior I was spanked for doing. I am healthy and have a good relationship with both my parents. My husband was raised with spanking as well. Nearly all of his spankings were with implements and not always in private, neither of which we would ever use for our children. He also feels that much of his derech eretz and integrity is due to the way he was raised and he also has a good relationship with his parents. We believe in the value of corporal punishment, not as a means of fear or humiliation, as a means of punishment. There is nothing wrong with punishment. When we potch one of our children, it is always accompanied with plenty of conversation about why the action/decision was wrong, and most key, how the child could make a better decision in the future. Sometimes we role play the future choice as practice.

5 swats on a clothed tush is not abuse or humiliation. It is a punishment. Punishments are not supposed to be fun and enjoyable. Punishments are meant to be learned from. My oldest is old enough to put into words that getting potched makes her think before making a choice and that she will potch her kids to help them think about their decisions. Our children know that we love them and that we wish we did not need to potch them, but that because of the action they said or did, they have earned a punishment. Life has consequences.

If it doesn't work for you, that's fine, but let's stop throwing around terms like abuse. It's just not.

nywife

Sat, Jul 11 2015, 6:52 pm

chani8 wrote:

I also do not potch. And I've also said the same thing. Wink

I'm an ex-potcher. I stopped potching when my oldest was 5.

I wish I could say I stopped potching because of what it does to children, but really, I stopped potching because of what it did to me. I looked like, to me and probably to my children, like a big, ugly, mean, scary monster. Though I've seen other mothers who look less ugly but more like highly controlled emotionless robots when they potch.

What do you look like when you potch?

I also stopped potching, not because of the damage it causes to children's central nervous systems, but because of what it did to mine. The adrenaline rush, the effort it took to potch with control, and how long it took to calm down, were all too painful. And the guilt afterward hurt a lot, too.

So, it just wasn't worth it to me. I like the laid back mother I am now. Ture, sometimes my kids are loud, messy, misbehaving, rude, whatever, but they're happy and relaxed.

Not growing up with violence is good for a child. In fact, as I told one adult child who wanted to discuss potching, the people who potch most are more likely from low socioeconomic communities. Rarely do rich people potch. I told my child, if you want to raise kids who will become rich one day, don't potch them. Wink

Chani8, I respect you greatly. I really do.

amother

Black

Sat, Jul 11 2015, 7:39 pm

Leora2 wrote:

I said the same thing as your daughter when I was 15 until I was 21. Since then, I have grown up and had my own. I have never and will never potch. I was a child under my parents influence.

amother

Floralwhite

Sat, Jul 11 2015, 9:10 pm

Leora2 wrote:

I understand potching when a young child until the age of 8 does something terrible or dangerous to others. In my family it is usually the last resort. But please reconsider potching your 10 and 13 year as a means of discipline. They are too old for this kind of discipline. I too came from a home where there were threats of being hit with a belt or being potched ( happened very rarely), After awhile it all became a joke.( My parents cant handle me and all they know how to do is hit me like I am 5 years old!)

Older children want so much to know that they are important and are making their family proud. When they act out, you should vent your disappointment in them. Tell them they know better then to act in such and such way.Give them tough meaningful consequences. How about a mop and a broom? and start cleaning extra messes around the house in addition to their chores?

Please find other ways. This is the age, to have your older children own up to the consequences of their actions and discipline themselves! A five year old understands a a quick potch when he does something really outrageious and dangerous. (like in my home throwing a sharp object at a siblings head after repeatingly being warned about his defiant behavior) A 10 year old and a 13 understands a potch as humiliation, and being treated like a 5 year old. You are setting the tone.

I am posting as amother because, I dont want to be bashed as a potcher. We potch only as a last and final resort. We never threaten with potching and we do not depend on it as a means of discipline.

sneakermom

Sat, Jul 11 2015, 9:43 pm

Leora, I gotta say. Why such an emphasis on punishment? What the hell are your kids doing so wrong? To me it feels like an over reaction and an excuse to dominate a child inappropriately.

Let's take potching out of the picture. Let's say someone decides that for chinuch purposes a child who speaks chutzpahdik should be made to stick out his tongue for five minutes, while standing on one foot.

The mere act of force. Of putting a child in a compromising ridiculous position is shameful. It proves that the child is helpless and makes them hate themselves.

Abusive parents turn their children against themselves. You never look into the mirror the same way once you've been shamed. The chinuch these kids learn is to feel horrible. When they grow up they either repeat it and transfer over that terrible experience or they never forget the wound and spend a life time trying to heal.

mommy3b2c

Sat, Jul 11 2015, 10:02 pm

amother wrote:

It seems like my philosophy is the same as yours. I did not go amother. If people want to bash, let them.

Leora2

Sun, Jul 12 2015, 5:25 am

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. In my home, we have rules that we follow. They work for us. My 4 kids are potched in total maybe 4-5 times a year. That doesn't seem like an emphasis on punishment at all. In fact it sounds a lot more like the last resort you're describing. The difference is, we don't potch arbitrarily or because we're fed up after a long day or we're overtired and then your kids must deal with an element of shock and fear and terror of not being loved. We follow the rules and hold our kids accountable. The kids know when they've earned a potch and aren't scared. They know it's a punishment for the choice they made, and they know that while they're getting that punishment, they are still deeply loved. Most of the time, our home is filled with laughter and fun. As I said, we only need to potch a few times a year. All of our children know that they make us extraordinarily proud and that they are deeply loved. This works for us. It's not abusive or humiliating.

mommy3b2c

Sun, Jul 12 2015, 6:08 am

Leora2 wrote:

You are entitled to your opinion and to keep defending yourself. Hitting a twelve year old, on the tush, no less is highly inappropriate and humiliating. There is a reason it is against Halacha. Like I mentioned in my other posts, there is a time and place for everything. What you are describing is not the time and place.

black sheep

Sun, Jul 12 2015, 12:04 pm

I think potching parents are confusing something when they say that hitting teaches children derech eretz.

there are some children who seem to be out of control. sometimes a parent is at her wits end trying to figure out how to teach the child to be a mentch. grab the child, hit the child, and all of a sudden you have a compliant and obedient child. so the parent thinks they are teaching respect. the child might even grow up to think that he learned how to be respectful from being subdued and hit, because of the connection between being hit and becoming docile.

so parents sometimes confuse subdued with respectful. and people also sometimes confuse "shamed" with "mannered."

many parents were raised to believe that if they don't hit their children, they don't love their children and that their children will grow up spoiled and disrespectful. this is not only untrue, it actually takes away a parents other tools for teaching children. children outgrow physical discipline. many children as young as 13 are taller and stronger than their mothers and sometimes even their fathers. how will you discipline then? only by their voluntary submission to receiving physical punishment, which adds to the shame and humiliation. and you completely lose all their respect when you do that.

unfortunately, misguided parents think they are raising well mannered children by hitting, but in reality they are raising shamed children who will always have a marred relationship with their parents, at best.

the best parenting is done by inspiring and by unconditional loving. both of those things are impossible with hitting in the equation.

I am not they type to say that hitting is always the worst thing, and I know that sometimes parents do feel it is a last resort. the purpose of the post is not to debate every technical aspect of when hitting might or might not appropriate. but if you use hitting as your form of discipline, and you even have a method to the hitting, and you are still hitting your 13 year old daughter, then know you are not teaching her derech eretz or building your relationship but rather shaming and humiliating her and ruining any chance of a future healthy relationship with her.

and the purpose of my post is for all the young parents who were brainwashed to think that potching is okay, or even good, please read leora's post and see if it looks like where you want your parenting to be in 10 years. decide if you want your relationship with your teens to be about how many swats they submit to and where and when. because if you don't (I am sure you don't!) then stop hitting now while they are young enough and establish a relationship outside of physical discipline.

Raisin

Sun, Jul 12 2015, 1:22 pm

Leora2 wrote:

Unless you got married at 17 or 18, I can hardly believe a parent would spank a post high school child. Although I can't really wrap my head around spanking a 15 year old either.

We don't spank in our house, except very rarely a toddler, on the hand, but spanking seems a ridiculous punishment for a teenager.

Laiya

Sun, Jul 12 2015, 6:22 pm

Leora2 wrote:

>>Unless you got married at 17 or 18, I can hardly believe a parent would spank a post high school child. Although I can't really wrap my head around spanking a 15 year old either.

Very common in some locations, particularly southern US and parts of Europe....what you can or can't believe isn't all that relevant.

Also, whether or not it's common in some locations isn't all that relevant to whether or not the practice is good or advisable. In some places in the world, fgm is common, so what?

Other posters have given great, well-reasoned arguments for not hitting, especially teenagers.

There are other ways.

I would just add that you should keep in mind, the relationship you have with your kids serves as the template for the life-long relationship they are developing with Hashem (warm and loving, or punitive and angry).

WriterMom

Sun, Jul 12 2015, 7:40 pm

Leora2 wrote:

Among yidden?

I know of people who hit their kids into the late teens. Without exception, they are lower socioeconomic status, and non-Jews. I have truly never heard of educated Jewish people who hit past the age of 7-8, let alone adults (and yes, older teens are adults, even if they live at home.)

Chayalle

Mon, Jul 13 2015, 9:45 am

This just saddens me so much.

One of the reasons I married my DH is because of how much he and I were on the same page regarding Chinuch. When we were dating, we discussed the home we envisioned, and he told me that he believes in parenting with love and warmth. He told me he will never, ever hit his children (and he has stuck to that.) He is not strong on discipline, and sometimes I'm the one that has to be firm...but I appreciate that he does not hit, and it's a fair enough trade-off. And BTW - my kids are well-mannered and have Derech Eretz, they are considered good kids in school and in the neighborhood. They are relaxed and easy-going.

My younger sister dated a young man who told her he believes in a strong approach, potching, etc...she dropped him. She got pressure to reconsider and held firm, saying she would never have Shalom Bayis with someone whose approach is so opposite of what she wants. B"H she's marrying a wonderful man with similar views to herself on parenting.

When it comes to Shidduchim for my girls, this is one area I will bli neder be doing extensive research, and I will encourage my DD's to discuss this on dates, so that they do not marry someone with the hitting approach. I would not be able to bear to see such parenting of my grandchildren.