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Mirabelle

Fri, Dec 17 2010, 1:28 pm

frummy613 wrote:

I know for a fact that aahron has made several attempts to get back together with tamar,
he is withholding the get regardless of who has child custody

So you're saying that despite having a civil divorce he is withholding the get because he wants to get back together with her?

frummy613

Fri, Dec 17 2010, 1:28 pm

who cares if you dont know the other side? who cares if you dont know all the details of the situation? the fact remains: WITHHOLDING A GET IS AN ACT OF EVIL

frummy613

Fri, Dec 17 2010, 1:30 pm

that's not unheard of mirabelle, though I do not know the answer, I just heard from a close friend

saw50st8

Fri, Dec 17 2010, 1:33 pm

...

Last edited by saw50st8 on Fri, Dec 17 2010, 1:45 pm; edited 1 time in total

Leahh

Fri, Dec 17 2010, 1:34 pm

A letter from Beis Din stating that Aharon is not obligated to give a get at this time!

Barbara

Fri, Dec 17 2010, 1:42 pm

According to Ora:

Quote:

ORA has spent over 150 hours trying to reach an amicable resolution to this case by mediating a reasonable settlement between the two parties. Aharon's demands have been outlandish and he is unabashedly trying to use the get as leverage. A protest rally is the last thing we want to do. However, we are unfortunately left with no choice.

We ask all members of the Jewish community -- Silver Spring, Washington DC, and beyond -- to attend this rally to demonstrate that we will not tolerate this abuse. Please make every effort to attend!

ORA operates under the halakhic guidance of Rav Hershel Schachter, shlita. Rav Shmuel Kamenetsky, shlita, and Rav Hershel Schachter, shlita, have issued statements urging the community to do whatever is necessary to encourage Aharon to immediately issue Tamar a get and to demonstrate that this get-refusal is not acceptable in our community.

See bold. I'd be shocked if two respected rabbis would call a demand that accommodations be made to allow a Shomer-Shabbat parent to access his child before Shabbat *outlandish* There is likely something else going on.

Also see Rabbi Kamenestsky's letter from last week:

http://getora.org/PDF/Letter%2.....8.pdf

MommyZ

Fri, Dec 17 2010, 1:43 pm

Men using a get as leverage and having other men who are Rabbis in positions of power back them up is wrong. If there are custody issues that should be addressed and I fully support healthy father-child relationships but I don't support using a get as leverage for any reason period.

Barbara

Fri, Dec 17 2010, 1:44 pm

Duplicate post deleted

Last edited by Barbara on Fri, Dec 17 2010, 1:45 pm; edited 1 time in total

Chayalle

Fri, Dec 17 2010, 1:45 pm

frummy613 wrote:

who cares if you dont know the other side? who cares if you dont know all the details of the situation? the fact remains: WITHHOLDING A GET IS AN ACT OF EVIL

I guess I disagree here. I think a get is the final act, with other things needing to be worked out first. Just like people get married with preparation, the get requires some preparation.

MommyZ

Fri, Dec 17 2010, 1:47 pm

Chayalle wrote:

frummy613 wrote:

who cares if you dont know the other side? who cares if you dont know all the details of the situation? the fact remains: WITHHOLDING A GET IS AN ACT OF EVIL

I guess I disagree here. I think a get is the final act, with other things needing to be worked out first. Just like people get married with preparation, the get requires some preparation.

The civil divorce has been final for 8 months. The get is the only thing that is preventing her from moving on from a relationship that has been over for 2 1/2 years. He is using it to blackmail her because he is unhappy with the legal custody agreement. That is just wrong.

frummy613

Fri, Dec 17 2010, 1:48 pm

this is ridiculous. Tamar is is from philly, so when she and aaron seperated she went home to live with her mother (and father who was recently niftar)

Peanut2

Fri, Dec 17 2010, 1:51 pm

saw50st8 wrote:

frummy613 wrote:

who cares if you dont know the other side? who cares if you dont know all the details of the situation? the fact remains: WITHHOLDING A GET IS AN ACT OF EVIL

If she screwed him with custody arrangements, why should he give up his only power? Isn't it evil of her to agree to custody terms like that? Where there is no way for him to actually have his kids on Shabbos?

Again, I don't know details. I'm going by snippets in this thread.

It's not his only power. He has been in court, has arranged financial matters, and has a civil divorce.
He can continue to fight for a different custody agreement. If the issue is shabbos observance, he has enough of a reason to go back to the judge. No big whop.

A get should never be part of this! Ever! I was always told that a get is the first thing to do before anything else. In fact, I have friends who are unfortunately divorced or in the process of getting a divorce, in the US and the UK. I was surprised to learn that they have the get before the civil divorce is even finalized! But halachically it makes sense. It makes sure that they are no longer and eshet ish, and releases both parties from halachic obligations to each other (though obviously not civil legal obligations.)

I have personally met and spoken to Rabbi Ben Dahan (the former head of the batei din in Israel), and he seems like a real mentsch. But in Israel civil and religious divorce are one and the same. His letter doesn't mention that they are in fact civilly divorced and financial and custody arrangements were made beforehand. All he states is that these things are traditionally decided upon before the divorce is settled. This makes me wonder why these letters are being written and who is providing the information to this dayan.

Why do they have a civil divorce and not a religious one?

Anyway, details and both sides and all that are irrelevant. Give the get. Do not use it as a bargaining tool. The rest needs to be settled in an appropriate G-d fearing civilized manner.

As a community, we cannot and should not tolerate men using the get as a bargaining chip. Even if they were wronged in some way.

Remember, if we as a community allow men to use this to get what they want (whether justified or not), we are encouraging women to compromise their children's safety and wellbeing. If not in this case, then the next one or the one after.

smilingmom

Fri, Dec 17 2010, 1:57 pm

I do not know any of the facts of this case, but in NYS a civil divorce cannot be granted until all issues of child cistody, child support and maintenance have either been resolved by the parties or decided by a court.

It appears that in this case their is an order resolving all these issues, but one of the parties is not happy with the decision of the court. Tha is what Appellate Courts are for! If someone is unhappy with the court ruling they can file an appeal and ask for a staying (stopping) of the divorce judgement provisions. If the don't like the the decision of the appelate court they can file further appeals.
BTW, NY rarely allows the child to relocate from the marital home city, without consent of both parents, or after trial based on extenuating circumstances.

All the Rabbis involved in this situation are Gedolim in this area, but as with all humans they can all look at the same situation and see different angles.

I hope this situation gets resolved speedily.

Chayalle

Fri, Dec 17 2010, 2:17 pm

frummy613 wrote:

this is ridiculous. Tamar is is from philly, so when she and aaron seperated she went home to live with her mother (and father who was recently niftar)

How is that fair to the father? She can move wherever she wants and he has to follow?

I don't know this case at all....but I know someone going thru a divorce now, and part of the arbitration spells out where they can move, how many miles, etc....so that one parent cannot make it difficult for the other to see the children.

In addition, the proceedings include provisions for the parent having the children for the weekend, to start on Friday afternoon, early on.

Seems NY is more in tune with religious needs.

Barbara

Fri, Dec 17 2010, 2:18 pm

frummy613 wrote:

this is ridiculous. Tamar is is from philly, so when she and aaron seperated she went home to live with her mother (and father who was recently niftar)

While I don't think any of this should impact upon a get, I also don't think that the fact that she is from Philadelphia excuses her. In most cases, a child has two parents, and should be entitled to have a meaningful relationship with both. Neither parent has the right to deprive the other of access to the child because s/he wished to move from the marital home.

If a woman is from Tahiti, but marries and moves to Brooklyn, does she have the right to take the kids to Tahiti if they divorce?

smilingmom

Fri, Dec 17 2010, 2:31 pm

frummy613 wrote:

this is ridiculous. Tamar is is from philly, so when she and aaron seperated she went home to live with her mother (and father who was recently niftar)

The mother or father can move wherever in the world they want to, but the child should not be allowed to move if it impacts negatively on the other parent.
To be clear, if the mother wants to move to her hometown, the child can live with the father and the mother can visit evey other weekend or whatever.

One parent has no more of a right to a child than the other, assuming that they are both good parents. If the mother chooses to leave, she can, without the child.

smilingmom

Fri, Dec 17 2010, 2:40 pm

One more point, in the agreement, Aaron agreed to pick up the child at 6:00 on Friday afternoon.
Did he not know that in the winter Shabbos starts before 6:00?
Assuming, Tamar still lived in Silver Spring, but on the other end of the town, how would that solve the Shabbos visitation problem? Can a three year old be expected to walk a mile in the cold winter evenings?

MommyZ

Fri, Dec 17 2010, 2:42 pm

smilingmom wrote:

That is a good point.

smilingmom

Fri, Dec 17 2010, 2:56 pm

Another point.

We obviously do not know the whole story.
If the visitation schedule is impractical, the mother should negotiate a solution so that the father can get to spend every other weekend with his child. Perhaps a trusted third party can pick up the kid earlier on Friday or perhaps the father can pick up the kid on Thursday evening as she is too young too attend school at this point and bring the kid to Silver Spring.
There are many options when people are willing to work together for the best interest of the child. In this case there appears to be many people involved in their lives right now, which makes it more difficult for the parents to be flexible.

frummy613

Fri, Dec 17 2010, 4:15 pm

regardless of the custody issues, a man must give a get. he can battle in civil court if he chooses, but to withhold a get is immoral

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