Israeli Doctors Treating Terrorists

Motek

Wed, Mar 02 2005, 6:33 pm

freilich - again, nobody said doctors should kill

rydys wrote:

The fact that the legal system is a mess does not make me a dayan.

but to turn a blind eye to what will happen might very well be in the category of lo saamod al dam rei'acha (do not stand by your fellow's blood)

Quote:

I do have the right and obligation as a doctor to do the best I can to heal anyone who comes before me and needs my help.

perhaps a doctor's obligation as a Jew is to ask a shaila about this

and I read an article about a frum Israeli doctor whose beeper went off on Shabbos and he was off to the hospital to save the life of an Arab

does the Torah permit desecrating the Shabbos for a gentile? not as far as I know

yet another shaila for Israeli doctors to ask

hisorerus

Wed, Mar 02 2005, 8:51 pm

The basic reasoning is to avoid Chillul Hashem.

Medical ethics in Halacha is a vast topic; I learned about a number of issues in Israel. There is a foundation there that deals with much of it, I'm sure this has been brought up too. I don't have patience to look it up now, but check out their site, they may address it: http://www.medethics.org.il/siteEng/index.asp (The Shlesinger Institute)

Motek

Thu, Mar 03 2005, 12:23 pm

Quote:

This shaila has been asked and answered. the psak given is that today it is not only mutar but a chiyuv.

surely this is not a blanket teshuva to be applied in any and all circumstances

for example, if a terrorist is brought into the hospital, there are doctors already present who can treat him

they may not be the best, as the senior dr. on call is, but perhaps that's "good enough" for a terrorist (if a terrorist should be treated altogether)

and the issue here is not just treating any [gentile], but a terrorist who can be expected to attempt to kill other Jews

Rivka

Thu, Mar 03 2005, 6:42 pm

Motek first of all Israel did not free 500 terrorists. You want to know who they freed? They freed those palestinians who throw stones at soldiers. They are not the ones with firearms, but they get arrested for anything they do and so they are put in prison. Israel released them because they do not see them as a threat. They will not release people who have gone in the middle of a street and shot down anyone. Also they will no release those who are responsible for suicide bombings and such.

So do you call a stone thrower a terrorist? Also I don't understand what you are trying to say. If a Palestinian is brought into the hospital the Dr doesn't know who the guy is or what, he is just shown a patient who needs help. Do you think the Dr starts asking questions like "ok, so have you been involved in any terrorist activity" There is no time, the Dr knows he has to do his best and try to save this person. If you start making judgements while being a Dr and start treating certain people like sub-humans who have no right to anything, you are just doing exactly what the Nazis did to the Jews. So I don't agree, no matter what or who that Palestinian is, if that Dr is called to take care of him and treat him, that is what that Dr has to do.

Motek

Thu, Mar 03 2005, 7:26 pm

Quote:

Yet another released terrorist has been re-arrested by Israeli security forces for involvement in terrorism.

The arrested man, Waseem Akab Khalil Mantzur, had been released from an Israeli prison in 2003 after spending less than a year in jail for his involvement in previous shooting attacks.

http://www.israelnationalnews......77437

Rivka

Sat, Mar 05 2005, 6:37 pm

Quote:

Have you ever been thrown stones at?

Yes by kids in the park...guess what they were muslim! I don't think they knew I was Jewish though. Another incident...also by Muslims on the bus, they threw stones at the bus though. But they are not arrested.

This whole thread is about Drs treating people. A Drs job is to save lives. If we are talking about taking people on trial, that already is not the Drs job and going around shooting people is not the Drs jobs. So if a Dr doesn't like someone they should just deny them medical help? Is this ethically right or even morally right? No it is not. It is not the Dr who makes decisions like this. Even a murderer in prison will be stopped from commiting suicide? Why you should ask? Because they are treated still like humans. If you start seeing them as anything but human, then already you are giving them an excuse for their actions. I don't think it is up to us to decide who gets to live and who gets to die and who deserves medical care and who doesn't.
As it says we must wipe out Amalek, but as no one knows who they are we cannot do that and anyway Muslims are not Amalek, they are from Yishmael. So basically when Yishmael was sent away and dying in the desert Hashem still miraculously made an oasis appear, even though Hashem probably saw what is happening today as there is no time. So, you are saying a Dr knows best? And once you kill one, you will start killing more as it is so simple and so guilt free. I think for a Dr to do that, they are on a fineline.

Rivka

Sun, Mar 06 2005, 7:17 am

No they were closer than that and it was a brick not a stone.
You can't call stone throwers terrorists, because then you would have to call all Palestinians potential terrorists. Think of what they learn in school? Think of all the brain washing they get. It is the same. You cannot then suddenly treat them all the same as you will only be doing what they do. I am not saying we should believe them for one second and trust they truly want peace. No they don't. They want Israel and all Jews in the sea. But this thread is about Drs treating people and when it comes to treatment, someone who is injured should be left to die? That is not right. They are at that moment deffensless and for a Dr to take advantage like that, I would be worried about going to a Dr who did that sort of thing.
If we are talking about soldiers killing those who have guns or the Israeli justice system setting terrorists free, then it is a whole different argument.

Sun, Mar 06 2005, 2:27 pm

Quote:

I do believe that a stonethrower is a terrorist in training

I am sure you know, RG, about "frum" Jews in various parts of Israel who throw stones at people who are not dressed the way they should be or are driving cars on shabbos. Would you call them "terrorists in training" or suggest that doctors think twice before treating them ? I think it is a bit much to lump everyone who throws stones into the category of terrorist. Sometimes they are just kids who don't know any better.

gryp

Sun, Mar 06 2005, 2:41 pm

mp- I have been thrown stones at by Israeli kids too. I think it is abominable and outright disgusting, but these kids arent being taught to kill me! and the Arabs that have thrown stones at me on different occasions werent kids, although kids do it too. they were teenagers and adults, and yes I do think stonethrowers who have been brainwashed to be a shahid are potential terrorists.

there is also something obviously wrong with frum Jews who are taught that the not-frum are "bad" and you have to throw stones at them. it is very sad. but they are not taught to kill.

Rivka

Sun, Mar 06 2005, 5:52 pm

aren't they RG? those are the same people that agree with the palestinian cause and anyone who sides with terrorists are just the same. So they should also according to your theory be lumped in with the "potential terrorists" name. Also those who throw stones at people on shabbos because they are breaking shabbos is one big joke as the stone throwers are breaking shabbos too by throwing the stones...or do they set them aside before shabbos??
They are also potentially going to kill someone by their stone throwing. So you are saying just because they are Jewish they are not potential terrorists, but because you despise all arabs and palestinians and muslims, a muslim who throws a stone is a potential terrorist??
I am not muslim lover and I have no great feeling of love towards them, but I find it very disturbing that you should think that a Dr who's job is to heal, not to kill (and leaving someone on purpose to die is called killing) should do the job of an excecutioner to those muslims/arabs/palestinians and that includes children because they are potential terrorists and people who throw stones...hmmm

gryp

Sun, Mar 06 2005, 6:08 pm

Rivka-

Quote:

but I find it very disturbing that you should think that a Dr who's job is to heal, not to kill (and leaving someone on purpose to die is called killing) should do the job of an excecutioner to those muslims/arabs/palestinians and that includes children because they are potential terrorists and people who throw stones...hmmm

I never said that, im not sure where you got that from. I actually never said anything about doctors because I wasnt sure about my opinion on it. my opinion is actually that we do have to save them but too bad that we have to.

Quote:

They are also potentially going to kill someone by their stone throwing. So you are saying just because they are Jewish they are not potential terrorists, but because you despise all arabs and palestinians and muslims, a muslim who throws a stone is a potential terrorist??

I dont think you understood what I wrote before. this has nothing to do with Jews and non-Jews. it has to do with Arabs brainwashed to kill Jews.

Quote:

Also those who throw stones at people on shabbos because they are breaking shabbos is one big joke as the stone throwers are breaking shabbos too by throwing the stones...or do they set them aside before shabbos??

everyone knows stones are muktzah and they are obviously being mechalel shabbos by throwing them. I dont think that just because someone is mechalel shabbos, though, we can say they arent frum.

Quote:

aren't they RG? those are the same people that agree with the palestinian cause and anyone who sides with terrorists are just the same.

if youre talking about the neturei karta, I dont know if they are the ones or only ones who throw stones on shabbos. they do take a strange position politically, but they still dont brainwash their children to kill.

gryp

Sun, Mar 06 2005, 9:17 pm

you know, I was thinking about that while I was typing. I wasnt sure whether or not to put it in because obviously im not in a position to decide who is frum and who is not frum. unfortunately, ive been mechalel shabbos too, and I hope no one would classify me as not-frum. since im no expert in muktzah and the lamed tes melachos, and since I learn new things every day, I always find out that I do something wrong here or there. do you think its somehow possible that just maybe they dont know that stones are muktzah or they hold something else about it? in no way am I trying to justify what they do, I think people who throw stones at others should be arrested.

Sun, Mar 06 2005, 9:35 pm

Okay -there are a couple of separate issues.

1. As far as I know, you are considered frum if you keep shabbos, kashrus and TM. I think this is from Shulchan Aruch, but I don't know from where.

2. If you make accidental mistakes on shabbos or in kashrus or in TM, this doesn't count because it is not on purpose ( b'mazid). If you know and still do the wrong thing, only then you are not considered religious.

3. The people who throw rocks on shabbos- I do not know which ones know that the rocks are muktzeh and still throw them or which ones don't even know that rocks are muktzeh.

To me it sort of doesn't matter, because I have a problem considering someone religious if they specifically do things to harm another human being. In other words, I don't really agree with the first paragraph I just wrote. If a person keeps TM, shabbos and kashrus, but beats his wife, steals from his boss, etc- I don't think I would refer to that person as "frum" even though he technically may be considered as such.