Leash-Tzaar Baalei Chaim

Chocoholic

Mon, Dec 20 2010, 12:33 pm

DefyGravity wrote:

My dog has a large backyard and will stay out there for hours, but he still needs a long walk at least once a day and gets very excited when he sees his leash or hears the word "walk".

My dog gets excited for the words "chichi and popo", "leash", "street" and "let's go" (the spanish versions of those words) and goes insane by seeing his actual leash!!!! For short toilet stops I usually take him out without his leash even though we live next to a busy street he always stays on the grass (he's scared of the street), but if we go further I take his leash and put it on when we get close to crossing the corner, and he even gets excited for his leash when he is outside on the street without his leash.. LOL

gp2.0

Mon, Dec 20 2010, 12:37 pm

louche wrote:

There is a hierarchy in the world, and animals are below humans in that hierarchy. Restraining animals for good purpose is clearly permitted. The Torah outlines when it is and is not appropriate to restrain an animal. For example, restraining domesticated animals so that they can do work is clearly permitted, and conditions are placed upon that, such as not yoking together stronger animals and weaker ones. Muzzling an animal so that he cannot eat your grain that he is treading is clearly forbidden; otoh muzzling an animal so that he cannot eat the produce in someone else's field is required. Restraining an animal that may harm humans is clearly required.

When you start considering animal "rights" as equivalent to human rights, you not only fly in the face of G-d's command to Adam HaRishon to rule over the planet, but you embark upon a slippery slope that culminates in PETA-style outrages.

Whether or not it's acceptable al pi halacha or al pi hashkafa to restrain animals in order to have them solely as pets as opposed to owning animals for work, pest control, food, fiber and so on is a question I have not investigated.

A good ruler's actions should be in the best interest of his subjects. Not really a good analogy. Additionally, when the world was at first created, animals were NOT for eating. The command to eat animals came, I believe, after the mabul.

HindaRochel

Mon, Dec 20 2010, 12:39 pm

gp2.0 wrote:

HindaRochel wrote:

Domesticated animals have been, well domesticated and live a much longer, happier, healthier life than their stray/feral counterparts.

Domesticated animals may be happier in captivity. And wild animals born in captivity may be happy as well. But wild animals 'rescued' and then kept in captivity often show signs of being depressed. Their lives are shorter and lonely. Definitely Tzaar Baalei Chaim IMO.

But we are talking dogs and cats here, not wolves and lions. And there is some evidence that domestication was mutual...it wasn't man going into the woods and stealing pups and kits.

Animals and humans found each other mutually useful, and they found a way to work together.

Merrymom

Mon, Dec 20 2010, 12:42 pm

Chocoholic wrote:

DefyGravity wrote:

My dog has a large backyard and will stay out there for hours, but he still needs a long walk at least once a day and gets very excited when he sees his leash or hears the word "walk".

Your dog knows the leash means he'll go outdoors, he doesn't really want to be chained up struggling to walk while you keep up or hold him back.

For posters that think because an animal is considered domesticated therefore he should be kept in an apartment with nowhere to run around I honestly don't get the logic in that. Animals are for farmers, for people with big huge properties, etc.

HindaRochel

Mon, Dec 20 2010, 12:55 pm

Most domesticated animals LIKE being with their owners. There are animals that have traveled miles to get back to their families.

My cat was missing for three weeks, unhappily outside. As soon as she saw me she started crying to me, jumped up out of the garbage bin, pulled me closer with her paw, jumped back and forth to my shoulder, just about tossed herself into my arms.

If she had a voice it would have been TAKE ME HOME!

Domesticated animals are happy in homes that are small are large. With dogs it depends on the breed. Same with cats.

Birds might be different, I haven't kept them, but my cats don't need a lot of space, they need us. My dog didn't need a lot of space. He needed us.

DefyGravity

Mon, Dec 20 2010, 1:14 pm

Merrymom wrote:

Chocoholic wrote:

DefyGravity wrote:

My dog has a large backyard and will stay out there for hours, but he still needs a long walk at least once a day and gets very excited when he sees his leash or hears the word "walk".

Even dogs that have large areas to run around in need to be walked. Dogs get bored with the same scenery and like to go different places so they can have a chance to explore and be stimulated.

If you knew anything about domesticated dogs, you'd know that they are MUCH happier when they know they're not in charge. We had some issues with our dog, and once he learned that he wasn't in charge of the household, learned how to heel on a leash (which for the record is much shorter than the one we used to use), he's much happier and has lost nearly all his neurotic behavior. He used to be terrified of children and now he's not. And part of the training involved putting him on a leash when kids were around so he understood we're in charge and therefore he's not required to protect us. He used to be scared of nearly everything and now he's far more calm and relaxed around things that previously triggered all his fears.

In a way, dogs are a lot like children and do much better when they have boundaries and set rules.

Merrymom

Mon, Dec 20 2010, 1:38 pm

YESHASettler wrote:

Merrymom wrote:

For posters that think because an animal is considered domesticated therefore he should be kept in an apartment with nowhere to run around I honestly don't get the logic in that. Animals are for farmers, for people with big huge properties, etc.

So why is an apartment suitable for small, growing children?

Well if you keep yours cooped up all day and only take them out for short bathroom breaks on a leash I'd think the same.

BeershevaBubby

Mon, Dec 20 2010, 1:41 pm

Merrymom wrote:

YESHASettler wrote:

Merrymom wrote:

So why is an apartment suitable for small, growing children?

Well if you keep yours cooped up all day and only take them out for short bathroom breaks on a leash I'd think the same.

Well, let's see... some days I had too much to do around the house to go out. Some days the weather wasn't for going outside. Some days I was sick.

Once the kids started school, they were in school for what... 7 hours or so at a time, some days with a 30 to 45 minute outdoor recess, other days with an indoor recess.

So I fail to see how the average city kid is any better or worse off than the average city house pet.

geemum

Mon, Dec 20 2010, 1:44 pm

louche wrote:

Beautiful and well thought out post. I agree with you.

Merrymom

Mon, Dec 20 2010, 1:45 pm

YESHASettler wrote:

Merrymom wrote:

YESHASettler wrote:

Merrymom wrote:

So why is an apartment suitable for small, growing children?

Well if you keep yours cooped up all day and only take them out for short bathroom breaks on a leash I'd think the same.

Number one, because we have ways of entertaining ourselves. Do you know any dogs that can read a book or watch a movie, make a block tower, or play with a sibling? You give him a rubber ball for a few minutes is not enough. Animals don't belong in small homes imho.

HindaRochel

Mon, Dec 20 2010, 1:47 pm

Merrymom wrote:

YESHASettler wrote:

Merrymom wrote:

YESHASettler wrote:

Merrymom wrote:

So why is an apartment suitable for small, growing children?

Well if you keep yours cooped up all day and only take them out for short bathroom breaks on a leash I'd think the same.

Most dogs and cats are quite content to play a bit and sleep or snuggle next to their owner. My cat is currently curled behind the computer, quite content. Every once and awhile I reach back and pet her.

Merrymom

Mon, Dec 20 2010, 3:08 pm

HindaRochel wrote:

Merrymom wrote:

YESHASettler wrote:

Merrymom wrote:

YESHASettler wrote:

Merrymom wrote:

So why is an apartment suitable for small, growing children?

Well if you keep yours cooped up all day and only take them out for short bathroom breaks on a leash I'd think the same.

I feel differently about cats, unless of course you put them on a leash too.

Mirabelle

Mon, Dec 20 2010, 6:29 pm

This is a weird thread because it seems like there aren't many actual dog owners commenting (other than a few people).

I grew up with dogs and have a dog now. My dog has my whole house as well as the backyard to run around in, but she also loves taking walks with her leash. If she was not on her leash when she was on a walk she could get distracted and run into a busy street and get hit by a car.

I actually think we would be the wrong ones if we let her go "shpazirin" without being on a leash!

Mirabelle

Mon, Dec 20 2010, 6:50 pm

Chocoholic wrote:

Mirabelle you're sooo right.. My dog almost chvs died a few times when he smelled a Very Interesting Bïtch across the street and ran over there.. Also for him it's not a punishment at all to be on the leash, he is close with his person, the only thing he doesn't like is not being able to smell other dog's pee for as long as he desires...

lol, spoken like a true dog owner.
My dog has a buddy across the street and given any chance would love to run over there. She has, on occasion, run out the door (always at the worst time, like when I am struggling to get all three kids in the car alone) and into the street and it's very dangerous because we live on a very busy street and have a highway pretty much behind our house.

My dog also goes crazy when she sees my DH getting out the leash (my doggie is 100 pound and has knocked me over when walking her before, so only DH can walk her) because she knows what it means.

anon

Mon, Dec 20 2010, 7:14 pm

Merrymom, I agree with you. Well, not necessarily about the leash part, but about making sure that your home and exercise options match the dog's needs. That's why choosing the right breed is very important, as they each need different amounts and types of exercise.

Louche, if you knew some of the issues that PETA fought for, you'd realize that they aren't all crazy. Some are extremely legitimate and I'm glad to know that at least some people out there are strongly fighting for animal rights (the right not to be tortured, for one thing).

I am unimpressed when Jews start quoting the torah as far as animals are concerned, because in this day and age, people are HORRIBLE to animals..and sometimes it's for NO GOOD PURPOSE. I think G-d is DISGUSTED with the way animals are treated, hierarchy considered. Two obvious examples are the fur industry and the circus. A more controversial topic (since there is more of a purpose) is the way animals are manufactured for food. It's all torture, it's all tzaar baalei chayim, it's all people ABUSING their position on top of the food chain.