What makes Vegan Restaurants Non-kosher?

Tamiri

Wed, Feb 02 2011, 11:30 am

OldYoung wrote:

Tamiri wrote:

(1) Bishul Yisrael
(2) Pat Yisrael
(3) Oil - vegetable oil may be hauled in tankers used previously for hauling treif oils (needs hashgacha)
(4) Insects in produce/legumes
(5) Not sure about challa
(6) Grapes/grape juice

That's all I can think of for now.

Here are more potential issues-
fruits and veggies from Israel- shmittah/terumos/maasros
chametz sheavar alav hapesach

Everything that leaves Israel via the organized exporters has had t&m taken. This is not acceptable to all streams of Jewry, but if something has a sticker on it, I assume it's okay so that's not an issue. Shmitta is only an issue every few years. Chametz is only a problem if the restaurant is owned by a Jew.

OldYoung

Wed, Feb 02 2011, 11:32 am

Chavelamomela wrote:

sequoia wrote:

You guys don't know anyone who eats at vegan restaurants? I do.

There is a huge difference between "not kosher" and "not-hechshered"

For those of us who live in a large Jewish community, or in a place where kosher food is obtained relatively easily, then its easier to find a strictly kosher place to eat out.

But for those who travel, or live or work in areas where kosher food is harder to get, and who know the halachot well, then there is wiggle room.

Pas-palet - bread that is baked in a commercial bakery is permissible. It's not the same thing as pas-akum. AYLOR about it.

Raw Vegan places - there are some nice vegan places (some with hechsherim) that make excellent food that is a lot easier for a kosher consumer to eat than other places. For example - if it's a raw place, then there's nothing wrong with eating, for example, a cold tomato soup (made from pureed tomatoes, not cooked), with some basil and spices...

Now, I don't eat in these types of places, but I know plenty of people who do and are completely trustworthy with kashrut.

THAT is a VERY bold statement to make and quite misleading! I would hope that most women do not take what you wrote at face value, and are cautious to ask their own shaalos, if they find themselves in the position you mentioned.

Chavelamomela

Wed, Feb 02 2011, 11:37 am

OldYoung wrote:

Chavelamomela wrote:

sequoia wrote:

You guys don't know anyone who eats at vegan restaurants? I do.

As I said, I am not the one eating in those places. But there IS a shitta that allows for it, and as I stated above AYLOR!

What do you think our bubbies and zaydies did in Europe? My grandparents were all frum, as were DH's GP's, and we know they travelled around, stayed at inns - and they found food that they could eat.

We live in a very different era, especially if you live in a community with many kosher establishments. You may take this for granted, but its not this way everywhere in the world, even today.

That's my point. I am not giving a 'green light' to do it - I am giving a 'green light' to not judge the person who does do it, that you can understand that there are shittos that allow it.

Tamiri

Wed, Feb 02 2011, 11:40 am

Barbara wrote:

Tamiri wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

Fully no meat? Ask your rav. Or search Freidasima's post on old European ORTHODOX practices, search engine Smile

Ruchel it's not acceptable in the frum world if you care about kashrut. It's not like people have no kosher choices and the Vegan restaurant is the only choice of food left in the world.

Actually, when you're on a business trip in the middle of nowhere, it may well be your only possible choice of food. The world isn't Israel and NYC. It includes South Dakota, Montana, and even Botswana.

Barbra, does Grand Rapids Michigan qualify? My husband never ate out during the months he worked there - and we aren't over the top or anything. He had a pot, frozen food I sent him and whatever was kosher in the supermarket. And BTW he was shlepping everything from Phoenix AZ, where we lived. You do what you have to.
I don't say not to eat ANYTHING. A non cooked veggie that you slice yourself, or fresh fruit are doable in my world. But it gets "iffy" when you are talking about cooked food, made with ingredients you don't check beforehand.

Mimisinger

Wed, Feb 02 2011, 11:42 am

Ruchel wrote:

Fully no meat? Ask your rav. Or search Freidasima's post on old European ORTHODOX practices, search engine Smile

This is the impt. thing that you wrote and why people don't hold like this anymore (by us anyway), because kashrus has changed. Things are manufactured very differently than back in the OLD Europe.

Everyone else said all the reasons why I wouldn't.

sarahd

Wed, Feb 02 2011, 2:06 pm

Barbara wrote:

Tamiri wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

Fully no meat? Ask your rav. Or search Freidasima's post on old European ORTHODOX practices, search engine Smile

Ruchel it's not acceptable in the frum world if you care about kashrut. It's not like people have no kosher choices and the Vegan restaurant is the only choice of food left in the world.

I wonder how many vegan restaurants there are in Botswana.

chocolate fondue

Wed, Feb 02 2011, 8:09 pm

1. Coming from England, there was a lot of ignorance even among the Rabbonim. My grandfather remembers an event attended by chashuve Rabbonim where treife fish was served (he remembers what kind of fish it was, but I can't remember the name) - no one knew that it wasn't kosher, or no one thought to ask. So you can't bring proofs from old Europe.

2. Going further back in history, the inns in England had a system for kosher travelers. Inns would have a set of kosher pots and dishes. When a Jew finished using them, he would write the date on the back in chalk in Hebrew. The next Jew would only use them if they had a date on the back. If someone else had used it, the date would have been washed off. So yes, people were careful kashrus when they traveled.

3. I don't think anyone is so stuck for food that his only choice is a treife restuarant. You can buy your own fruits and veg too. Eating bugs is worse than eating chazer.

4. My cousin just quit working in a kosher restuarant, with a 'good' hashgocha, because he was so horrified at the standards of kashrus there. Kal vechomer a treife place.

5. When my grandparents were becoming frum, they decided to go to a very fancy restaurant that they were used to going to. They reasoned 'oh, we'll only have the smoked salmon, which doesn't need a hechsher, it's cold, so it doesn't matter about the plates...' They ordered the stuff and then they realized they just couldn't eat it. They paid the bill and left. Point being; if you want to find an excuse to do something, you will, but a yorei shomayim will be careful.

Just my two cents.

mo5

Wed, Feb 02 2011, 10:04 pm

As someone pointed out already...food preparation has changed radically. What was once simple canned vegetables is now processed in a plant that may also be steaming treif. Same with so many other 'simple' foods. So even a vegan...who will eat canned fruit/vegetables/sauces will have these things.

Same with grape derivatives. There are certain products which are by-products of the wine-making process added to drinks etc., also can be a problem.

princessleah

Wed, Feb 02 2011, 10:18 pm

Why is it so hard to have a theoretical discussion on this site?
I think the OP's intent (correct me if I'm wrong) was to ask -- let's think about it, if the place is strictly vegan, what would make it potentially NOT KOSHER? Not UN-HECHSHERED. As pointed out above, something can be kosher and not have a hasgacha. Such as: a banana. We know this is kosher.
So it's possible that there is a vegan restaurant that is technically kosher, and we may not eat there b/c it doesn't have a heschsher, but it may be kosher.

The posts that best address this question are the ones with actual reasons, like "bishul yisrael" or "grape products" or "oils."
It's an interesting topic, so why get bogged down in "you can always eat a box of cereal." Sure you can, but I don't think that was the question being asked-- what can I eat?

So: the possibility of grape products I would think is the biggest one. Do all hasgachot nowadays require that the vegetables are inspected? Are there any that don't? I'm curious.
In the UK I've seen (and a little bit in the US) a vegan "hechsher" that they put on foods so that vegans feel comfortable knowing there are no animal products-- even traces in the food. It's interesting, because if there's no oil, then what would the problem be?

also in the US they always put on the package "manufactures in a plant that also processes XXXX" because of allergies. I've seen that xxx be nuts, dairy, wheat, and shellfish!

Mrs Bissli

Thu, Feb 03 2011, 3:30 am

chocolate fondue wrote:

A very interesting point, choc fondue. Can it be turbot? There are actually two types of turbot, European turbot is not kosher, though I believe Pacific turbot is. I read somewhere (can't recall, sorry) there were discussions on English rabbonim on the status of turbot, some minority opinions held it kosher though now majority consider it treif.

Princessleah, the "v"-mark/vegetarian certificate does not go further enough. For example, baked goods that has "vegetarian margarin" (which can contains fatty acids or emulsifiers that are listed as potentially problematic ingredients from kashrut perspective) can still get V-mark. Though vegetarian society (the organisation that grants V-mark) guideline states the products need to be free of gelatine/PRIMARY animal/fish byproducts and no cross-contamination with non-vegetarian products.
http://www.vegsoc.org/page.aspx?pid=650

DrMom

Thu, Feb 03 2011, 3:54 am

If you are somewhere without hecshered American/Canadian/European packaged foods, or without fresh fruits and veggies, then I can see taking the vegan restaurant route as the lesser of evils.

I don't see any reason -- while travelling anywhere in the US -- to eat in a place where there may be so many questions of kashrut. Even in areas with almost no Jews you can find a zillion hecshered products in any major supermarket.

Traveling w/in the US is a relatively simple matter, food-wise, for Jews.

Isramom8

Thu, Feb 03 2011, 4:30 am

Being pampered by the availability of the most stringent hechsherim in EY, it's easy for me to say "stay on the safe side and don't go there". If I were in a place or situation where it was very inconvenient or uncomfortable to avoid it, I guess I'd choose raw foods that were not buggy and also keep on the alert. Like I might explain that I have "sensitive allergies" and everything used in the preparation of my salad has to be completely clean and cold and cannot have touched traces of other foods. A plain wrpapped baked potato might be a safer choice than bread.

If this is outside Israel, I see infestation (lettuce, cabbage, spinach, broccoli, cauliflower, asparagus, strawberries, figs, etc.) and oils in breads and salads and soups as the major concerns. Then there is bishul nochri, trust, and then there are grapes/wine, and the EY mitzvos such as terumos and maasros and shmitta. Orlah can also be a concern - I'd need to know which fruits are generally not from orlah.

chanchy123

Thu, Feb 03 2011, 4:53 am

saw50st8 wrote:

Tamiri wrote:

sequoia wrote:

You guys don't know anyone who eats at vegan restaurants? I do.

I know frum people who eat fish at regular restaurants too.... nu, what's the point? I know frum Israelis who eat the fries as MacDonalds because, after all, it's vegetable oil.... I promise.

McDonald's uses beef derivatives in their oil (at least in the US and Canada).

A vegetarian sued a McDonald's in Haifa after finding out that the fries she ate were fried in the same oil as the burgers and she WON.
That being said I do know orthodox people who would and have eaten out at vegan/vegetarian restaurants. Of course, most of them would eat dairy - or pareve at a non kosher restaurant here so that's not saying much.

cassandra

Thu, Feb 03 2011, 7:00 am

mimivan wrote:

cassandra wrote:

chocolate fondue wrote:

Eating bugs is worse than eating chazer.

How do you figure?

the Rambam...depending on what kind of bug it is there, may be as much as four different issurim...(if it is winged etc..)

the short answer..what makes a Vegan Restaurant non-kosher? There is no masgiach!!!

Assuming you eat both intentionally. Eating a bug not knowing it's there is not worse than eating an unidentified piece of meat that happens to be pig.