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Motek

Sun, Jun 03 2007, 10:47 pm

I hope nobody who dislikes old threads will take a look! Wink

Lechatchila Ariber

Sun, Jun 03 2007, 10:52 pm

well too bad if they do.
I like the old threads...in case you haven't noticed Wink

faigie

Sun, Jun 03 2007, 10:59 pm

its interesting that youve mention ester............
what would you call a woman today, if she married a pagan king? chances are shed be ostracized.
if anything, she was very openminded.

Lechatchila Ariber

Sun, Jun 03 2007, 11:03 pm

faige Esther wasn't exactly given a choice...

mumsy23

Sun, Jun 03 2007, 11:10 pm

I would say that all those above mentioned heroes are open-minded NOT closed minded. A closed minded person would not be able to go against the current and do something that in his generation was considered outrages. Closed minded people generally just believe what ever they grew up with without being able to see alternatives.

faigie

Sun, Jun 03 2007, 11:25 pm

young women in nazi germnay jumped off the roof of their school for less z"l.

Lechatchila Ariber

Sun, Jun 03 2007, 11:28 pm

Esther put her life in danger for the sake of the yidden
she didn't marry achashverosh because she was in love with him Chas ve sholom, she married him for the sake of the rest of the yidden at mordechai's directives.

faigie

Mon, Jun 04 2007, 9:27 am

there is plain p'shat that would disagree with that statement. ester had no clue what she was getting into.
for example................
ester told mordechai, ( after he first asked her to approach the king, when the edict was announced) that if one approaches the king without the king requesting that persons presence, that person will be put to death. she was scared to die...............
to which mordechai replies..............
mordechai tells ester that it was possibly for "this issue" that she was made queen. moreover, he also told ester that if she doesnt help the jews, help will come from somewhere else, and you and your fathers house will be destroyed! do not think that your position of royalty will save you!
its an amazing passage really, one of my favorites, beucase it shows us, that we women, like ester, a regular girl, (bah) have such koach to rise up to the occasion and, literally, save am yisrael. there are other such situations thru history, so this can not be a mere coincidence, or one time nais.
ester had no clue of the impending situation when she became queen.

Lechatchila Ariber

Mon, Jun 04 2007, 7:42 pm

I was referring to the part where she put her life in danger by approaching the king. as far as her becoming queen to begin with, a) she had no choice b) mordechai understood through ruach hakodesh that it was meant to be for the sake of am yisroel

faigie

Mon, Jun 04 2007, 8:00 pm

by the pasuk we can see that she had no clue that she could affect anything on behalf of the klall. in fact she was afraid to act altogether!
in regard to mordechai having ruach hakodesh, that can be easily disputed.......... interestingly enough, mordechai uses the words "ume yodeah im le-et kazot hegat lamalchut... even he isnt sure 100% if this was the reason that ester was brought to be the queen.
we need to recognize that our heros were people who rose to the occasion, not some outworldly tzadikim that we could never ever hope to come to such a madraygah.
they thought out of the box, and took a chance. they were anything but closed minded.
as far as going to the king to begin with, I can tell you that jewish women have killed themselves over such a situation.....and had every right to.
............same issue with chanukah............

Lechatchila Ariber

Mon, Jun 04 2007, 8:04 pm

you are denying that mordechaim and esther were tzaddikim? shock

you are comparing esther with a modern day rebell who goes off to marry a pagan just because? shock

you are suggesting that Esther was wrong for not killing herself instead even when it was with mordechai's (who IS a tzaddik's) reassurance that she did what she did?

Atali

Mon, Jun 04 2007, 8:21 pm

al pi halacha a woman doesn't have to give up her life rather than submitting to a man who she is not allowed to be with. Since she is not the one being "active", it is not "yeharog v'al ya'avor".

faigie

Mon, Jun 04 2007, 8:35 pm

estie estie estie esite estie.........................
im not sure how to approach your attitude.
in your first post addressing my purim post, you come at me with the idea that I couldnt possibly know anything about the story of purim...........
and now youre implying that ive written ideas, that werent REMOTELY mentioned in my posts... ie.. I made mention that queen ester was a wild child who ran off with a pagan king.................please.........
im trying very hard here to be kind towards you.
please read my posts again, and youll clearly see that any and all of your implications and conclusions regarding my posts are erroneous.

Lechatchila Ariber

Mon, Jun 04 2007, 11:26 pm

then please explain to me what you meant because re-reading your posts I see this

Quote:

its interesting that youve mention ester............
what would you call a woman today, if she married a pagan king? chances are shed be ostracized.
if anything, she was very openminded.

which sounds like you are comparing Esther - a tzadeikus to someone running of with a [gentile] by choice
and then you write this

Quote:

young women in nazi germnay jumped off the roof of their school for less z"l.

which sounds like you are saying Esther was wrong for not commiting suicide rather then be taken to achashverosh's palace.
and then you write

Quote:

that we women, like ester, a regular girl

and this

Quote:

we need to recognize that our heros were people who rose to the occasion, not some outworldly tzadikim that we could never ever hope to come to such a madraygah.

which sounds like you are saying they were ordinary people and not tzadiim
and then going back to what you wrote originally

Quote:

its interesting that youve mention ester............
what would you call a woman today, if she married a pagan king? chances are shed be ostracized.
if anything, she was very openminded.

and then you write

Quote:

they thought out of the box, and took a chance. they were anything but closed minded.

it sounds like you were saying that we should keep an open mind of people marrying out nowadays because Esther did it.
and then you write again

Quote:

as far as going to the king to begin with, I can tell you that jewish women have killed themselves over such a situation.....and had every right to.
............same issue with chanukah............

which sounds like you are again saying that Esther was wrong.

So I'm sorry if I misunderstood what you wrote and maybe you can explain it to me again, because so far I'm Confused

faigie

Tue, Jun 05 2007, 10:16 am

some tzadikim are born tzadikim.
others, become tzadikim, by rising to the occasion.
ester was a girl in the Persian empire, who got caught up in king achashvaoshes grip. according to what ive learned about xyerkses ( achahvayrosh) he was out of his bloomin mind.
ester was chosen to be the queen, obviously yad hashem was in there.......but ester nor even mordechai knew at the time just to what purpose all this would amount to.
yes ester was just a regular jewish girl. maybe someone like you and me. who knows.
when the time came for ester to do her part, she dug down and found the courage to do what was necessary. that was how she BECAME a tzadayket. everything mordechai and ester did, show us the way they treat life as an art and a craft........and together with yad hashem were zoche toconquer amalek. that, by definfition, can not be closed minded.

Esther01

Tue, Jun 05 2007, 10:27 am

I just want to add about he story of purim, that it took many years for this story to unfold (don't remember now exactly how many) but esther and mordechai only realized AFTER the whole story, how Hashem had planned it, all those years earlier... that esther become queen, that mordechai save achashverosh's life... etc.
at the time the story was happening, mordechai and esther did not know what will happen in the end....

just a thought

and btw, I agree with faigie that it was definatley open minded.

Lechatchila Ariber

Tue, Jun 05 2007, 5:59 pm

faige seems we learnt differently.
I specifically learnt that the beauty achashverosh saw in Esther was shining through from within. That she was a unique person to begin with...not ordinary at all.
Mordechai was not ordinary either

faigie

Tue, Jun 05 2007, 7:30 pm

her reply to mordechai is quite normal and ordinary. its right in the p'shat. shes scared for her life.

mali

Wed, Jun 06 2007, 6:05 pm

I'm happy to see this thread was revived. Let me explain the point I was trying to make:

The world's (mis)interpretation of "open-minded" is not the Torah's view of open-minded. Sure, we have to be thinking people, but we have to think in the Torah's way. All our heroes succeeded only because they did what they did L'sheim Shomayim. A person who thinks independently, not regarding Torah law is not open-minded, creative or original. As a matter of fact, he's the exact opposite.

de_goldy

Wed, Jun 06 2007, 6:29 pm

Faigie, there's a reason we have meforshim on the pshat. the way you paint esther is almost like a completely new story with new characters. We can't just go and interpret pshat however we like.

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