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-> Interesting Discussions
Motek
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 Sat, Nov 18 2006, 9:15 pm
| Emuna wrote: | | I could have learned more about tznius talking to the secular women than to the so-called shluchas. It's truly embarrassing representing myself as one of them. |
In their defense, I think that they think that as frum women who have to abide by tznius laws which includes a wig (something utterly weird to outsiders), that they have to look super-good so nobody can say that being religious is synonymous with frumpy.
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Motek
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Sat, Nov 18 2006, 9:17 pm
A major secular idea that has more than crept into our minds is DEMOCRACY.
Torah life is NOT a democracy. NO, we are not all of equal status. NO, we don't all have a say.
Another secular value is youth worship.
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amother
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Sat, Nov 18 2006, 9:59 pm
| Motek wrote: | | Another secular value is youth worship. |
Motek excuse my ignorance but what is youth worship? what does that mean?
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Emuna
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Sat, Nov 18 2006, 10:32 pm
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Youth worship: Ask a young person if they'd rather have fame or wisdom. Most would probably say "fame" in secular society. Fame represents youth, beauty, and money. These are secular desires. Wisdom represents age. The older you get, the more wisdom you have. Our secular society is obsessed with youth, beauty, and money - and yes, I totally agree with Motek that it's WORSHIP.
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Tefila
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Sun, Nov 19 2006, 2:11 am
Never take the blame!!
iT'S Always
1) how one was raised it wasn't their fault 
2) They have issues so a Dr is needed and meds : 
3) A therapist to convince them they are guiltless 
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shalhevet
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Sun, Nov 19 2006, 3:37 am
| Tefila wrote: | Never take the blame!!
iT'S Always
1) how one was raised it wasn't their fault
2) They have issues so a Dr is needed and meds :
3) A therapist to convince them they are guiltless |
100% Tefila, 
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amother
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Sun, Nov 19 2006, 3:57 am
| Tefila wrote: | Never take the blame!!
iT'S Always
1) how one was raised it wasn't their fault
2) They have issues so a Dr is needed and meds :
3) A therapist to convince them they are guiltless |
I'm not referring to any one issue in particular, but we have all become armchair analysts. Any woman who confides her problem to others on this website, will almost w/o exception be told, maybe you should this or that, and imply that the one venting is guilty in some way. Then there will always be a "Miss sure of everything" that comments - when problems like that arise, it's the mother's/ wife's, fault, etc. They enjoy playing the BLAME GAME.
Take for instance people that after smoking 3 packs of cigarettes a day, go to the Dr., and find out they're dieing of lung cancer- we'd say well they deserved that. But there are people that drink carrot juice, eat only nutritious home made foods, don't smoke or drink, read up on anti pollutants, do their BEST and live squeaky clean lives AND THEY GET THE SAME LUNG CANCER.
Often people judge others by the results that they see, not by what they truly know about the person's way of life.
Please let's all remember the last thing anyone wants to hear is Nah nah nah nah nah nah- you have a problem because you caused it, even if it is said tactfully!
THERE IS ONLY ONE ANSWER anyhow- YAD HASHEM.
And Mussar has to be given only by the right person at the right time and the right place.
In my humble opinion, that's what I think.
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amother
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Sun, Nov 19 2006, 8:21 am
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That's sure something to think about.
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Ruchel
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Sun, Nov 19 2006, 8:24 am
I don’t agree, Jewish women have very often worked…
| Quote: |
Secular education
Money/ Materialism
Simchas with the aim of impressing the neighbours and being talked about for months (oy vey if someone else used the same colour napkins). People used to make simchas to make the choson and kalla have a wonderful day and give the poor people of the town a nice meal.
Nationalism - Jewish people davenned for two thousand years to have the zechus to even die in Eretz Yisroel. Now people say - we know we could go, but it's very nice here thanks and the US/Europe/whatever is just a great place to live.
Fashions |
I don’t agree either… Jews were always known for their knowledge (and since non jews didn’t care about the Torah, it had to come from secular knowledge).
Money and fashions are not new problems and have crept up in our values a very long time ago… Nationalism is also not so new.
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Imaonwheels
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Sun, Nov 19 2006, 8:39 am
I'll name what I think are the most pervasive and most dangerous because they replace a Torah outlook that is diametrically opposed:
1) Psychology and nonJewish education theories.
2) Decidely far left views on feminism, civil rights and what us acceptible in the name of culture.
3) Democracy and socialism.
4) Materialism
5) Minhagei non jews - fashions
6) Media influence
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amother
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Sun, Nov 19 2006, 1:47 pm
| amother wrote: | | Tefila wrote: | Never take the blame!!
iT'S Always
1) how one was raised it wasn't their fault
2) They have issues so a Dr is needed and meds :
3) A therapist to convince them they are guiltless |
I'm not referring to any one issue in particular, but we have all become armchair analysts. Any woman who confides her problem to others on this website, will almost w/o exception be told, maybe you should this or that, and imply that the one venting is guilty in some way. Then there will always be a "Miss sure of everything" that comments - when problems like that arise, it's the mother's/ wife's, fault, etc. They enjoy playing the BLAME GAME.
Take for instance people that after smoking 3 packs of cigarettes a day, go to the Dr., and find out they're dieing of lung cancer- we'd say well they deserved that. But there are people that drink carrot juice, eat only nutritious home made foods, don't smoke or drink, read up on anti pollutants, do their BEST and live squeaky clean lives AND THEY GET THE SAME LUNG CANCER.
Often people judge others by the results that they see, not by what they truly know about the person's way of life.
Please let's all remember the last thing anyone wants to hear is Nah nah nah nah nah nah- you have a problem because you caused it, even if it is said tactfully!
THERE IS ONLY ONE ANSWER anyhow- YAD HASHEM.
And Mussar has to be given only by the right person at the right time and the right place.
In my humble opinion, that's what I think. |
I second that.
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carrot
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Sun, Nov 19 2006, 1:51 pm
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I question the premise that all ideas are divided into 2 neat categories, religious and secular, and the secular is by definition wrong and bad.
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Motek
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Sun, Nov 19 2006, 3:22 pm
tefila, imaonwheels
| amother wrote: | THERE IS ONLY ONE ANSWER anyhow- YAD HASHEM.
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That is true BUT we are responsible for our choices and one of the mitzvos is taking care of your health.
Anyway, I'm enjoying the different responses. There are separate threads to discuss thinness, so please no more here!
| carrot wrote: | | I question the premise that all ideas are divided into 2 neat categories, religious and secular, and the secular is by definition wrong and bad. |
Who said that's the premise? Since you're Lubavitch I'll ask you - have you learned sichos in which the Rebbe speaks about "goyishkeit"? In this thread I'm asking what goyishkeit has crept into our way of thinking.
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carrot
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Sun, Nov 19 2006, 5:23 pm
| Quote: | carrot wrote:
| Quote: | | I question the premise that all ideas are divided into 2 neat categories, religious and secular, and the secular is by definition wrong and bad. |
Who said that's the premise? |
Premises are often unstated but that does seem to be the premise here. Is it not? Do you disagree with that premise? Please clarify.
| Quote: | | Since you're Lubavitch I'll ask you - have you learned sichos in which the Rebbe speaks about "goyishkeit"? In this thread I'm asking what goyishkeit has crept into our way of thinking. |
Actually, I can't think of any right this minute although I don't doubt that there are. However that does not extinguish my question. It just makes me wonder even more, because I don't imagine that even in those Sichos where the Rebbe speaks about things being non jewish that is his sole reason for denigrating those things. I'm sure the Rebbe is very specific about why a particular thing is wrong. So why are we lumping everything together over here?
As I think I mentioned somewhere else the whole idea that everything can be categorized as this or that, left or right, good or bad, black or white, right or wrong, religious or secular, in fact the whole idea of categories, is representative of a very Western way of thinking. So I guess this whole thread is non jewish.
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Tefila
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Sun, Nov 19 2006, 6:00 pm
Concerning my above post I am talking about a) the general philosophy and not the exception.
b) I don't believe in me or someone telling, someone else that they r to blame. B/c yes it is a Hashem who rules the world and who are we to say???!
bBut in the same vain lets not encourage the individual to lay blame elsewhere. Which is so apt of some DR's and thereapist to do 
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Motek
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Sun, Nov 19 2006, 6:03 pm
| carrot wrote: | | in fact the whole idea of categories, is representative of a very Western way of thinking. So I guess this whole thread is non jewish. |
I wonder what you mean by "the whole idea of categories" and by its being Western when halacha categorizes left and right 
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carrot
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Sun, Nov 19 2006, 6:48 pm
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Halacha, the way it is written and explained today, is definitely a product of the Western world. Did you really think Judaism exists in a total vacuum?
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Motek
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Sun, Nov 19 2006, 8:32 pm
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Carrot - Mishnayos and Gemara categorize things. They predate Western society.
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carrot
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Sun, Nov 19 2006, 8:35 pm
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That is not the way they are organized.
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