Would you divorce over chillul shabbos?

abound

Tue, Feb 21 2012, 3:00 am

ElTam wrote:

Quote:

Marriage is a spiritual relationship, as well as a physical, and loving one.

And yet we, as a community, encourage and pressure women to stay with men who are not loving (as in physically and emotionally abusive) and who don't provide for their physical needs, whether physical as in financial or support and help with the demands of running the household or physical as in "physical." Interesting, no? We raise up as examples men who make a korban of their wives and children in the pursuit of their own spiritual path, regardless of the cost to anyone else.

B"H, I do not live in your community. What a sad state of affairs your community is in. Crying

Dolly Welsh

Tue, Feb 21 2012, 3:00 am

amother wrote:

I am in this situation - my husband, well after our marriage, decided he is an atheist and does not keep shabbos. It is very very difficult, but I love him and we are working through how we want our lives to work. I have no idea what we will explain to the kids but I can't believe that a painful divorce when we both love each other is a better idea.

So sorry to hear.
He needn't be such a strict, devout atheist. If he is sort of a mild Reform atheist, he could go along with the program for the sake of the folks around him, and just sort of not worry about it. If there's Nobody up there what's relaxing for Saturday and not checking your email. He has a lifetime of frum habits; he can do all that on auto-pilot.

True story: a Jew, a man, a thorough scoffer and non-believer, was still willling to sit in shul reading a newspaper, as the tenth man, so the other nine, believers all, could have a minyan. He was just helping because he was asked to, in that Jew-scarce little town, and he knew it meant so much to them, although it meant nothing to him. Now, that's a mentsch. I am convinced he impressed G-d even more than the others did.

Your husband's lack of belief is a sorrow, but his lack of consideration is the real scandal. He has his nerve, waving his private crises in the breeze for all to see, with children around, with you, with your family's reputation. Indiscreet doesn't come near it. A man needs to keep his mouth shut around women: Avos. For the protection of the women. They have enough to do. He's making trouble, when life is hard enough. Under today's loosey goosey definitions, what he's doing would be called emotional abuse by some. Perhaps by me. Very sorry to hear.

And he shouldn't tell me he isn't bound by Avos, a tractate of the Torah, as he is an atheist this week. My father, who was not religious in any way, would never have dreamed of waxing communicative about his personal views in a way that was tiresome or hurtful to those around him. And he had slept in foxholes and was no softy. He wasn't considerate because he was dainty. He was considerate because he was.

Last edited by Dolly Welsh on Tue, Feb 21 2012, 3:15 am; edited 2 times in total

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Feb 21 2012, 3:10 am

Dolly Welsh wrote:

amother wrote:

That is not always such a good idea, at all. If the person is an atheist, they need to be able to do things at their own pace. To do frum things on auto pilot is just destructive for someone who is not sure about the mitzvot at all.

amother

Tue, Feb 21 2012, 3:13 am

Dolly Welsh wrote:

amother wrote:

Are you serious? Emotional abuse? Have you ever experience emotional abuse? This is not it. One spouse has changed, yes that is very sad, but it is not all that you are making it out to be (I am a different amother).
A man needs to keep his mouth shut around a woman you write. Please explain.
I know of a few couples where the husband was not frum and the wife was and it worked out just fine. The children respected the parents because they saw mutual love and respect for each parent by the other parent. And they grew up and were able to choose their path.

Dolly Welsh

Tue, Feb 21 2012, 3:16 am

OK, good.

A man only needs to keep his mouth shut around one particular woman, when his True Confessions and Tales from the Crypt would hurt her. A man doesn't wear his shoes to bed, and he doesn't upset his wife about something she can't do one thing about, and that isn't her fault. A man discusses that sort of stuff with his Rav. Or, if that won't work, frets about it alone. Some things a man has to cope with alone. Like night guard duty. It gets lonely, but sometimes it's a duty.

Duty.

Being an atheist does not absolve one of duty.

As for it being "destructive" to him to do mitzvot on auto-pilot so as not to make a high holy shanda in his family and community, well, tough. Women and children first. I could be sorry for such a person, and respect him, like the man with the newspaper, if he remained at his post under trying circumstances. But that is his assignment - when he has already married and had kids, when he still believed. And, belief can return. And he's a big boy. Big boys don't cry.

aidelmaidel

Tue, Feb 21 2012, 6:55 am

I went through this in my first marriage.

Let me start by saying that if the couple truly has a good relationship, the wife usually knows and sees what's happening over time - its not like one day your husband announces "I'm not frum anymore!". It's *usually* a gradual process. If the relationship has other issues, it's possible for a wife to ignore all the signs and be surprised the day she discovers her husband is mechalel shabbos.

I was willing to stay with my ex when he totally fried out, even after rabbonim told me he should give me a get because I was so convinced/brainwashed that I was supposed to do everything I possible could to save our marriage.

It was very sad.

aidelmaidel

Tue, Feb 21 2012, 7:07 am

And I want to add, because we have kids, even though we are divorced, I still have to address the issue of "tatty holds differently from mommy" in LOTS of areas. Divorce doesn't make that go away. At all.

I know of two families in my community that have made it work, but both women say it is VERY hard work.

Like I said recently to someone, what is *most* important to me is that my children are mentschen - the frumkeit is the whipped cream on top. Of course I want my kids to be frum, but if it turns out not to be, I won't stick my head in the oven. If I've turned out moral, upright, mentschen, then I have succeeded.

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Feb 21 2012, 8:50 am

Dolly Welsh wrote:

Quote:

Im sorry but what in the world are you spewing? Are you for real? A man should not upset his wife about something that she can do nothing about???? In what world are we living? A husband can not tell his wife things that she cant do anything about????? Really? Why???? I dont see that as a good thing. A couple should be able to talk to each other about things that are bothering them, no matter what. And not all men talk to rabbanim about things that bother them. And why in the world should he fret about something alone? That will only have someone, anyone, explode at the end, not talking about something.
So, NO, a man does NOT have to cope with things alone. I feel very bad for your husband if that is the way that you live. Sad

Quote:

As for it being "destructive" to him to do mitzvot on auto-pilot so as not to make a high holy shanda in his family and community, well, tough. Women and children first. I could be sorry for such a person, and respect him, like the man with the newspaper, if he remained at his post under trying circumstances. But that is his assignment - when he has already married and had kids, when he still believed. And, belief can return. And he's a big boy. Big boys don't cry.

Big boys dont cry?????????? shock

Who told you such silliness? I always learned that the strongest men were the ones that allow themselves to cry. I know some very strong men in my life, and let me tell you, they cant lift heavy peaces of wood or shoot guns, but they sure know when and how to cry. Why should a man not be allowed to cry???????????????????????????????????/
Also about the man making a holy shanda of his family or community, first off, who the h@ll cares what the community thinks? People should not be living for others, only for themselves. We dont live to "keep up with the jonses". If the man in question, has a wife who loves him and supports him and he is respectful, yet does not keep anything, where is the shame? If the children also understand everything, where is the shame?

I am so disturbed by your post dolly welsh!!!!!!!!!

WriterMom

Tue, Feb 21 2012, 9:04 am

Once you are married and even more once you've started a family with a man, he is part of your family. IMO healthy, normal and loving people do not cut off their family over religious differences.

Are there circumstances where the best thing you can do, or the least-worst thing you can do, is end a relationship completely? Sure. But the circumstances under which most of us would think it appropriate to cut off a sibling or even more so a child are pretty extreme. So it should be with marriage.

I get that it sends mixed messages to kids when parents' level of observance is different. But as others have pointed out, parents having different households with different levels of observance is even more confusing. And it also gives children a terrible picture of marriage: that it is conditional and that divorce is on the table, rather than that it is based on unconditional love and respect, and that divorce is a last resort.

Inspired

Tue, Feb 21 2012, 9:45 am

mommyhood wrote:

I can't imagine being able to convince my children to keep Shabbos if I supported a husband who didn't. I don't believe it's possible to keep such a thing hidden from them for very long they're bound to find out eventually and then how do you explain it, it's ok for Daddy but not for you doesn't seem logical to me how could it seem logical to a child. Now if he was just going through a hard time and was hoping to change I would consider it but I don't see how someone could raise Torah abiding children with someone who's not.

At what point do your children get to actually believe that Judaism is correct?

Daddy is an adult who makes his own choices. With a non observant father in the family you either let the children old enough to understand, choose whether to be observant or, together with your co=parent you come up with a parenting policy of what the house rules are for children.

I know multiple families where one parent was religious and one wasn't, some married and some not, and afaik most of the children chose to be religious as adults. One family in particular that I know 5/5 of the children ended up frum 2 went otd for awhile then came back.
Our job as parents is to work with what we are given and give our kids life skills for the long run. Not to force them into compliant behavior right now.

How would it help to divorce? Unless you mean divorce the spouse and then do something underhanded to deny the other parent visitation and custody, the reality of the other parent's religious observance will forever be part of the kids' lives. If the parents stay married the religious spouse at least has more control over how much non religious behavior the kids witness.

I like Maya's answer, personally.

jelly belly

Tue, Feb 21 2012, 9:57 am

ElTam wrote:

Quote:

Marriage is a spiritual relationship, as well as a physical, and loving one.

If this is true, I would hightail it out of that community pronto.

Inspired

Tue, Feb 21 2012, 10:06 am

wereafamily wrote:

I never thought about this before, but I am shocked at how many of you consider it an option to stay married...How can you be married to someone who disagrees with you on the most central aspect of life?
(you make it sound like being Jewish is just a "by the way" in your marriage, almost like what you do with your toothpaste tube -roll or squeeze it.)

Hashem does not say one is michuyav to divorce over yddishkeit. It does not say that the mizbayach isn't crying. Nowhere does it say one is michuyav to get divorced over religion. The shechina still dwells where there is shalom bayis. Having an intact respectful union of 2 halves of a neshama is still a huge priority. The person was your zivug, the other half of your neshama before they had issues of belief andd/ or taivah and now that they have those issues they suddenly stopped being your zivug? It seems like you are making bitachon and other things very "by the way" in your life. Hashem gave a person a particular spouse and particular circumstances and one has to try to live in that situation to the best of their abilities. The best of their abilities may be not to run away but to work through that situation.

Quote:

To the one who wrote that she would stay married for the sake of her kids: I have a close relative who stayed married to his OTD wife for more than 5 years... it had the most horrible impact on all their children, they were raised confused and lost.

I don't agree with the premise of staying together solely "for the kids", but again,unless one is planning on doing something sneaky and mean the otd parent will forever be a part of those kids lives. dvorcng will not change that aspect, imo it will clearly make the impact stronger.

Inspired

Tue, Feb 21 2012, 10:13 am

ElTam wrote:

Quote:

I think you totally misunderstand. I don't think people are saying it would be no big deal or "by the way." I don't think people are saying it wouldn't be gutwrenchingly difficult, I think they are saying they would try to do the best thing for themselves, their spouse and their children. As for the OTD argument, what affect would if have on the children to say, "Abba doesn't hold how I hold, so I threw him out." I think that would be likely to have repercussions for whether my kids stayed frum as much if not more so than what Abba might be doing. Would that really make my children love Yiddishkeit? Doubtful.

I'm reminded of the stories you hear about the great roshei yeshivot and roshei kollel and how they dealt with it when someone in their yeshiva/kollel was mechalel Shabbos. There is one story of the Chofetz Chaim holding a boy's hand who was openly smoking on Shabbos and crying with him. This was a student, not a spouse. Do our spouses, the person we are a ezer k'neggedo to, deserve less compassion and understanding?

I think trying to work it out is on a higher madreiga than tossing your spouse out like yesterday's garbage. I would hope HaShem would give me the strength to be on that madreiga.

Yes!

Inspired

Tue, Feb 21 2012, 10:16 am

amother wrote:

Maya wrote:

If the marriage continues to be very loving, stable, and respectful, and if my husband agreed to continue raising the children with religion and not do anything outright against to Torah in front of them, I'd definitely stay with him (if he wanted to stay, of course.)

You realize he wont be able to touch wine, right?

he wouldn't be able to move open bottles of non mivushal wine. So? Many of us have people in our homes on a regular basis that we can't have doing that. There is always mivushal wine. And wiskey, which I prefer anyway.