Would you divorce over chillul shabbos?

black sheep

Tue, Feb 21 2012, 3:59 pm

celestial wrote:

I do not think I would divorce over michalel Shabbos, because as another poster said, my husband is more to me than his observance.

That said, I would have never dated someone whose belief in G-d and focus on spirituality weren't important to him. Shared values and experiences are very important to me in connecting to my spouse. I would feel a serious and somewhat tragic disconnect if we parted ways on this issue.

this discussion is mostly focusing on how the family is impacted by the OTD parent/spouse. true, they will be ostricised, true, they will be giving their kids mixed messages, and true, the frummer spouse will have to buy mevushal wine or beer or something. but in my opinion, none of these are reasons to divorce! celestial, I think you said it very well, a marriage is more than the level of observance. it is a significant part of a marriage, but not a make-or-break point. what is much more important is mutual respect and good communication and interest in each other. respect doesn't have to come from sharing the same ideas and values. respect means not forcing your spouse to accept your values. if chas veshalom I was faced with this nisayon, I would hope that I would respect my husbands autonomy and right to make his own choices, and use our (much practiced) communication skills to figure out a way to accomodate our differences. in fact, as I type this, I'm thinking that we already are so different emotionally (he's a man, and I'm a woman) and we use our communication skills and interest in each other to create coping mechanisms, and it is working wonderfully, baruch hashem! that's what would need to be done with differences in religion. is it easy? no. is it a reason to divorce? no.

Inspired

Tue, Feb 21 2012, 4:07 pm

wereafamily wrote:

Inspired wrote:

wereafamily wrote:

I never thought about this before, but I am shocked at how many of you consider it an option to stay married...How can you be married to someone who disagrees with you on the most central aspect of life?
(you make it sound like being Jewish is just a "by the way" in your marriage, almost like what you do with your toothpaste tube -roll or squeeze it.)

Hashem does not say one is michuyav to divorce over yddishkeit. It does not say that the mizbayach isn't crying. Nowhere does it say one is michuyav to get divorced over religion. The shechina still dwells where there is shalom bayis. Having an intact respectful union of 2 halves of a neshama is still a huge priority. The person was your zivug, the other half of your neshama before they had issues of belief andd/ or taivah and now that they have those issues they suddenly stopped being your zivug? It seems like you are making bitachon and other things very "by the way" in your life. Hashem gave a person a particular spouse and particular circumstances and one has to try to live in that situation to the best of their abilities. The best of their abilities may be not to run away but to work through that situation.

Reading the past few pages in this forum, I see many people have agreed that they would get divorced for "abuse, addiction or an affair" - so what ever happened to bitachon/zivug/mizbeyach there?

If someone is mistreating their spouse or is unable to act like a normal married person there is no possibility of shalom bayis. For that Hashem created gitten. We don't get a divorce for our cheshbon of Hashem's kavod. Which is what a person divorcing an otd spouse is doing. I have never heard a halachic reason to divorce a respectful, menshlich, but not religious spouse. I have heard rabbis advise people to divorce not menshlich, abusive or addict spouses.

Quote:

Sure, you should try to work it out... but I think this vote was if you see that you can't change him.
What I find so surprising and shocking is, that for an OTD-DH you would stay but for for an "AAA"-DH you would run away.

try to work it out does not mean try to change him. Is that what you think shalom bayis is- trying to change your spouse?

OTD is not a contraindication of marriage. Having no respect for your spouse, abusing them, and being unable to be a partner in the marriage is- according to judaism.

Quote:

I don't have kids yet so I don't know. But I'm just thinking...
If you're truly being honest with yourself, and staying for the sake of your children, isn't it a lot simpler to hide addiction or an affair than OTD?

not only do you not have kids, you have no idea what addiction is. Do you also have no self respect?

ora_43

Tue, Feb 21 2012, 4:34 pm

I think atheism would be harder to deal with than chillul Shabbat.

There are lots of mitzvot. Most people are bad at doing at least a few of them. I know that Shabbat is one of "the big three" and breaking Shabbat pretty much puts someone outside the "frum category," but still, it's one mitzva. It wouldn't make someone "non observant" in my book.

If my dh were to break that mitzva... it would be very hard. But we could still have many values in common. We could still have similar life goals.

I think if he were atheist, it'd be much harder to have values or goals in common. Maybe if he were an atheist with a very strong connection to the Jewish people and to Israel, who saw keeping mitzvot as culturally valuable and not just something done to make me happy - but even that would be very hard.

If he were an atheist who was bitter about religion or always seeing the bad in it (like an amother on the other thread said about her husband) that might be so hard it would lead to divorce, not due to his beliefs per se, but it could wear down the marriage. It's hard to be religious around someone anti-religious for just a few days, let alone a lifetime.

Stayci

Tue, Feb 21 2012, 8:15 pm

This is a real stimulating question.

At first I was quite surprised that more woman would stay with a spouse believing in Atheism over a non-religious spouse. Then I realized that those woman must be concerned with their kids future in Judaism.

Then I questioned, Judaism instilled in children because their parents practice it, and not by choice- which would occur if one parent in not religious, is that a good or bad thing?

Also, I feel that the Jewish religion (Think Aseret ha-Dibrot) is intertwined with manners, and good old decency. If one just respects another, does not deceive, lie, hate etc... isn't that most of the religion?

Finally, I think that it all boils down to the stability in the marriage, great communication and respect playing a huge part. A stable marriage can handle differences of opinion- while a decline in religion may be the last straw of a crumbling relationship.

For me personally, religion doesn't play a role- but I don't have grown kids to worry about.

Dolly Welsh

Wed, Feb 22 2012, 2:34 am

Shabbat, I got a bit solemn and long-winded up there, because I was furious at such unkindness to innocents, but I still think a man, even one who can't build a sukkah or use a rifle should be protective. Men feel protective at any size and weight. His protectivness should caution him not to bring everybody down with him. As for big boys not crying, that was a metaphor.

As for the neighbors, in a belief-based community, they aren't going to be neighbors if you flout their deepest beliefs, which they organized their community around. And, the kids are going to be horribly affected at the big important moment of getting married. And what did they do? Why should they pay for someone else's doubts?

As for his having to cope alone, some things you share and others you mop up yourself. A guy foraging in the fridge at 2 am who spills the orange juice doesn't wake his wife to wipe it up. You wouldn't enjoy THAT kind of sharing. He finds a sponge and takes care of it. It's his spill. He owns it. It isn't, by its nature, a family problem.

When two men want to fight, they "take it outside". They don't have their brawl in the middle of the room in front of everybody. A man who wants to have it out with G-D should also take that outside, and not treat the rest of the clan to the spectacle of his hurts and doubts. If he gets fired or ill, yes, that's communal. That came from outside him, isn't happening inside him.

His wife gets enough grief for being religious, in the subway and on the street, - oh look! one of Them! - and, from non-frum acquaintance who can't phone her on Saturday; she doesn't expect to be confronted religiously inside her own home, her castle. She might wonder if she had a home. And where is her protector? If he isn't one, at this deep a level of her core beliefs, why is she keeping house for him? He should excerise both charity and self control, and not make a mess. He's inconsiderate.

Children do not need to be treated to the machineries of their parents' intimate emotional lives. Letting them in on "Tatty doesn't hold with this" is doing that. Tatty should hold with it. His private thoughts are not for the children to know. Not their problem. Not even their business.

And messing with their marriage chances! People might not get born, who were supposed to get born. But HE's got a spouse. HE's fine.

Maybe in merit of restraint, faith will regrow.

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Feb 22 2012, 2:53 am

I dont agree with anything that you are saying here. First of all, it is very obvious from the way you write that we do not live in the same kind of community as each other. All I can say is thank my lucky starts. I would have drowned looooooong ago in a community like yours.

Dolly Welsh wrote:

Quote:

Even as a metaphor, a grown man can and should cry. As for being protective, thats neither here nor there. We dont live in war torn anywhere where we need protection. A couple is a partnership.

Quote:

As for the neighbors, in a belief-based community, they aren't going to be neighbors if you flout their deepest beliefs, which they organized their community around. And, the kids are going to be horribly affected at the big important moment of getting married. And what did they do? Why should they pay for someone else's doubts?

Maybe in your community those neighbors wont be neighbors anymore if someone is not religious. Not in my world. people are not that shallow where I live or grew up. People are more than just their observance.
As for children, I know families where one spouse is frum and the other not and the children all came out just fine.
But then again, shidduchim or dating in my world, is done very differently. People dont care if the parents of future spouses are frum or not. Its a different world.

Quote:

As for his having to cope alone, some things you share and others you mop up yourself. A guy foraging in the fridge at 2 am who spills the orange juice doesn't wake his wife to wipe it up. You wouldn't enjoy THAT kind of sharing. He finds a sponge and takes care of it. It's his spill. He owns it. It isn't, by its nature, a family problem.

You enjoy using metaphors a lot. I personally do not think that a man's faith is only his "problem" to "deal" with. It is something that a couple should be "dealing" with together. Again, that is my world and the people that I know. No man is an island and he should not have to be one when he has doubts or a problem. Why is the wife there then at all??

Quote:

When two men want to fight, they "take it outside". They don't have their brawl in the middle of the room. A man who wants to have it out with G-D should also take that outside, and not treat the rest of the clan to the spectacle of his hurts and doubts. If he gets fired or ill, yes, that's communal.

Again, I totally disagree.

Quote:

His wife gets enough grief for being religious in the subway and on the street, - oh look! a fundy! - and from non-frum acquaintance who can't phone her on Saturday; she doesn't expect to be confronted religiously inside her own home, her castle. She might wonder if she had a home. And where is her protector? If he isn't one, at this deep a level of her core beliefs, why is she keeping house for him? He should excerise both charity and some self control, and not make a mess. He's inconsiderate.

You wrote that a wife does not expect to be confronted about religiosity in the house. Well, you know what? Life hits people with many things that they are not expecting. What then? People should have to always deal with such things alone? I never heard of something so selfish. Yes a home is her castle and his castle too.

I think you are being very naive and thinking in some sort of bubble world.

Quote:

Children do not need to be treated to the machineries of their parents' intimate emotional lives. Letting them in on "Tatty doesn't hold with this" is doing that.

Why?

hycup

Wed, Feb 22 2012, 7:51 am

WriterMom wrote:

wereafamily wrote:

What I find so surprising and shocking is, that for an OTD-DH you would stay but for for an "AAA"-DH you would run away.

It kind of blows my mind to have to explain this, but adultery, abuse and addiction are directly harmful to, and a betrayal of, the wife. Shmirat shabbat is between a man and Hashem, and has no direct impact on his wife and children.

The changes in outlook and lifestyle that might accompany becoming secular could ultimate present an unsolveable challenge to a marriage. But to equate adultery or abuse with being mechalel shabbat in terms of the harm it does a marriage reveals a profoundly frivolous mindset.

In addition to WriterMom wrote, all three AAA's are potentially life threatening: abuse - physical is obvious, mental can lead to suicidal thoughts, addiction - especially drugs can lead to uncontrolled violent outbursts, and affairs - can have an impact on your health from contracting STD, or even death if you get HIV or AIDS.

Clarissa

Wed, Feb 22 2012, 8:56 am

Sorry I'm posting without getting caught up on all the comments, but I want to address the issue of children. Even though on the surface my husband and I on the same page here about many things, we're really not, and for years my children didn't know. At some point my older child figured it out. I don't know if it was just from hearing discussions or tone when certain things came up or from conversations, but it was obvious to him. He knows, though, that as a family we hold with his father on observance. We've talked about it. The complicated issue is, of course, when children struggle with certain things. In a family like ours, it's easy to say that my children struggling with doing certain things (or not doing them) has to do with them knowing that their mother feels differently. In reality, children (and adults) sometimes change in terms of their feelings and how much they embrace certain mitzvot. But it our family, it can sometimes cause a little extra tension if a kid says, "why can't I...?"

In our family it doesn't become dramatic if, for instance, my husband knows that I've gone out with a friend to a place to eat where he wouldn't be comfortable, as long as I don't bring the children. Where it gets dicey is choice of schools (since some places that would make him happy wouldn't make me happy). We also get pretty cranky around Pesach, since he does like his mom, cleaning like crazy, and my family, obviously, was less stringent and sometimes the whole thing just makes us tense.

I don't know how it'll be long-term for us. Nobody can say where their relationship is headed. We've been together for a long time and, during smooth times, I think we've reached a comfortable place, but sometimes something happens that sets off some tension. I guess I'm saying that because something is going on right now that's highlighting our differences. But there are many times where I think we're going along pretty nicely, differences and all.

This is one place where Imamother has been very helpful for me. Making frum friends, having my questions answered, appreciating things through the eyes of people here, sometimes questioning things through the eyes of people here (I even learn when I hear from Imamother friends who are, themselves, rebels, because they teach me) has been very good for us, I think. I see the good about Orthodox Judaism here but also some of the bad, but I do learn.

amother

Wed, Feb 22 2012, 9:14 am

ora_43 wrote:

If he were an atheist who was bitter about religion or always seeing the bad in it (like an amother on the other thread said about her husband) that might be so hard it would lead to divorce, not due to his beliefs per se, but it could wear down the marriage. It's hard to be religious around someone anti-religious for just a few days, let alone a lifetime.

I have a relative going through this, where her husband became totally turned off from frumkeit. She too, was counseled to stay in the marriage by rabbanim, but deep down I don't think they see how exceedingly difficult it is for her on a day to day level, let alone when big events come up (bar mitzva, pesach). How awful of a situation is it that she has to rely on her husband, who no longer wears wear tefillin, to put tefillin on his bar mitzva boy? What to tell the 14 year old who doesn't want to go to shul because Daddy doesn't daven anyway, so why should he?

Most responders here thankfully have never had any real-life experience with the poll question and are answering it in an idealized manner, ie, of course we'll work out our differences! Judaism is between him and G-d. We'll just respect one another, that's all!

It's not realistic, because when a person *chooses* to stop observing mitzvos (as opposes to someone who was never on that level of observance to begin with, like in Clarissa's post above) he is almost always bitter about Judaism. The profile of an OTD person is generally not someone who is stable and is happy and content in life. So to rephrase the original question, would you stay married to someone bitter about Judaism?

Gsanmb

Wed, Feb 22 2012, 9:53 pm

I'm going to reply here as I am in this situation and have been for almost 16 years.

Neither my husband nor I was raised 'frum' (although my background was decidedly traditional even if it was Reform; his was basically unaffiliated and uninterested). I began the process of involvement with shomrei mitzvot just before and after we got married. At the time, he agreed to keeping the 'big three' and neither of us really could foresee issues with it. After all, we didn't have kids -- and he worked 100 hrs/week as a surgical resident, so shabbat was for sleeping (if he was home) and kashrut? he never saw the inside of a grocery store anyway.

Now we have, b'H, three kids. It. is. difficult. We argue over school (he thinks public school would be just fine, I want them in a yeshiva -- so far, they're in yeshiva, but it's an argument every month). He is respectful of kashrut (at home...I don't ask him and he doesn't tell me what he eats when he is out) and Shabbat (for the most part -- and if he does things he tends to keep it private). He accepts the social aspects (yomtov and Shabbat meals out, etc.) and enjoys them to some degree.

My children have grown up understanding that not every Jew (not even in their family!) understands about the Torah and what it means for us. They know that they are learning through me and their school what it means to keep the mitzvot and the Torah, but that their Dad and their grandparents and extended family do the best they can but aren't there yet.

For my girls (who are the two oldest) it has not really been a huge issue but for my son (who is now 6) I'm sure it will get more difficult.

But...divorce? I will admit having thought about it, although not only for this reason. My rav, and other rabbonim I've consulted (from modern to 'black hat') over the years have, without exception, said not to divorce if at all possible.

My husband is a good person, a mentsch. He is respectful (mostly).

But how can I expect my children to want to keep a Torah derech, if keeping Torah would split up their home and rend apart their lives?! They are not dumb; they would understand what was going on. And truth be told, it would be more difficult -- not less -- if we split. I live in a joint custody state and my husband is a great dad; under no circumstances would a judge not grant joint custody (nor would I want to prevent a healthy relationship with their dad!). This would mean that half the time -- HALF THE TIME! -- they would be in a nonkosher, non-Shomer Shabbat/mitzvot environment.

That to me is way more difficult to manage than my current situation. Is it ideal? No. Are there circumstances that might, G-d forbid, lead to divorce? Probably -- the three 'A's' come to mind.

And here's the other thing -- if I am truly a 'religious' person -- one who holds the precepts of the Torah to be paramount, then v'ahavta l'reacha kamocha is also important. What does it say about *me* if I reject my husband -- the person with whom I've married according to the laws of the Torah, had children, built a home with -- because of the very Torah I hold dear? Serving Hashem is an *avoda* -- oh, how nice it would be if it was simple to live as a religious Jew in a frum home they way I'd like; but just because Hashem has seen fit to challenge me this way, does that mean I don't practice what I 'preach'?

I am not saying this is easy. I have days when I wonder just how the heck I can continue this way. It is very difficult. I will say that without exception, all the communities we've lived in have had very supportive people and friends (even ones that others consider 'hard core' and not necessarily easy) who do not judge and do not criticize. I don't know what it will mean for my kids long term (I have been told they'll never find shidduchim Rolling Eyes

but that was one yenta and very unusual in my experience).

amother

Wed, Feb 22 2012, 10:09 pm

Gsanmb wrote:

but that was one yenta and very unusual in my experience).

I'm the amother who said her DH wasn't religious. It makes me very hopeful to hear about your story. Unlike yours, my DH is rather anti-religious, which I anticipate will make things difficult. It already does, though our friends and family don't know that he isn't observant.

Of course I (we) have thought about divorce. We want very different things from our lives, not least in terms of what community we live in and in terms of religion. And before anyone asks, when we got married, we were on exactly the same page - I couldn't have imagined a better fit for my hashkafa and the lifestyle I wanted. Things change, people change, and yet I am very grateful to have him.

It sounds like my decision has been made, but of course, there are good days and bad days. It isn't that I don't value frumkeit or religion - but I can't see that I would be better off alone than with someone who is a really good husband, despite some of the challenges we have as a couple. And I'm not naive about what this could do to us and our children socially, but I can't make decisions with that as the sole criteria.

Dolly Welsh

Wed, Feb 22 2012, 11:26 pm

Gsanmb's kids would be a treasure for any shidduch. Lucky whoever gets them.

Judaism is very good to the woman. It may be harder for the man. It may be less obvious what's in it for him. Exactly because the woman is a queen and the man is restrained. And men are more impressed with science perhaps, and its seductive if nonsensical appearance of being soulless, which it isn't, and conferring power, which it doesn't. Power goes where Hashem wants it to go.

I think the mother matters hugely; and a kid with a mother who believes will be fine. A rebel mother, or father too, should be discreet. It is a defect. Everybody certainly has defects, no one is immune, but they aren't to be celebrated.

Anybody who thinks it isn't a defect should just look at the pop culture and realize there's nothing between you and that except a frum way of life. It only looks far away, unfortunately it is very near. It is no fun at all. It's broken. Let us be grateful for yiddishkeit, and if it's tiresome to go along with the program sometimes, it's still worth it. It really is where the Life is. And nothing good is free; what's very good has a high price.

It may help to be OOT. The air may be simpler and purer. Or is that an illusion?

Shabbat, men and women both protect each other in turn, but, subtly, not quite in the same ways. They have different textures. Nothing wrong with that. Differences makes life interesting.

Perhaps the core of marriage is it is so permanently interesting to examine one of Them up close; They are so, so strange. And either a man or woman can say that. And they will be equally right to say it about the other. One may be bemused and confused, but at least one is never bored.