Is it an Averia? | Imamother

willow

Wed, Mar 21 2012, 2:21 pm

[quote="shalhevet"]Kitnios is not just a minhag - it has been a gezeira among Ashkenazim for about 1000 years. None of the reasons have changed.

FS, you never opened a packet of lentils or dried peas and found a grain of barley in there? The same containers, factories etc are often used.

The other reason - you can make flour out of them so people may become confused etc hasn't changed either.[/qu
I honestly don't get it still whats different about it? If you have to you have to and if you don't you don't. Why is ok not to do Upharin but one isn't allowed to also just say I want kitnyos. They are both Minhag.
I am asking this genuinely because
A) I would love to eat more varied diet on Pesach
More so
B) Do I cut my sons hair when it starts to fall in his eye or let it grow because you have to?

hadasa

Wed, Mar 21 2012, 4:22 pm

If observance of Judaism were only about refraining from transgressing in order to avoid punishment, then there would be no point in Minhagim, Hiddurim and Lifnim mishuras hadin. But Torah and Mitzvos are about connecting to Hashem. Like in human relationships, it is possible to maintain a minimal relationship, where you haven't done anything against the other person, but you haven't made any particular efforts either. OTOH, you may want to build up a deeper relationship with someone, into which you will invest more effort. You will always connect with different people in different ways. Similarly, different types of Minhagim help forge different types of connections with Hashem.

hadasa

Wed, Mar 21 2012, 4:23 pm

celestial

Wed, Mar 21 2012, 4:26 pm

hadasa wrote:

Hadasa, I mostly agree with you, but allow me to play devil's advocate for a minute.
Aren't there other ways to connect with Hashem besides for taking on more minhagim? Can't we expand in depth rather than breadth, if we have a choice and minhagim become a burden? Like instead of taking on more or stricter customs, someone can expend their energy in having kavannah during davening or intensifying kavana during the mitzvos they already do? Focus on gemilas chasadim and increasing their Torah learning? Is this forging a type of connection with Hashem?

StrongIma

Wed, Mar 21 2012, 4:33 pm

is it an aveira to go against a gezeira of chachamim? yes, of course - H' gave the chachamim that koach and you're going against this mitzva. it may not be an aviera d'oraisa, but it is a lesser aveira.

I dunno - you talk about lack of variety of food for pesach - we're chabad and I hadn't noticed a lack - you just have to be more creative with what you can eat. Personally, I think it's all in your mind - the sefardim feel the same way as you do - everyone is looking at what they can't have instead of what they can.

shalhevet

Wed, Mar 21 2012, 4:35 pm

willow wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

Kitnios is not just a minhag - it has been a gezeira among Ashkenazim for about 1000 years. None of the reasons have changed.

FS, you never opened a packet of lentils or dried peas and found a grain of barley in there? The same containers, factories etc are often used.

The other reason - you can make flour out of them so people may become confused etc hasn't changed either.

I honestly don't get it still whats different about it? If you have to you have to and if you don't you don't. Why is ok not to do Upharin but one isn't allowed to also just say I want kitnyos. They are both Minhag.
I am asking this genuinely because
A) I would love to eat more varied diet on Pesach
More so
B) Do I cut my sons hair when it starts to fall in his eye or let it grow because you have to?

There are different levels of minhag. Obviously no one does an aveira if they don't eat cheesecake on Shavuos. The issur on kitnios in Ashkenazi (and some Sephardi) communities is a gezeira (decree) made around 1000 years ago. It is binding on all those communities.

Regarding opsherin - it depends on your community. firstly, it was never that binding.

Not only that, but those who have it as a family minhag have it fairly recently (a hundred or two hundred years). Most people who do it today have no family minhag at all. It has become acceptable as 'minhag Eretz Yisrael' today - it is just done here, maybe because we are all close to Rabbi Shimon even if we aren't chassidim Wink

. It would just seem odd here not to. In fact I have a Sephardi (very makpid chareidi) friend who grew their ds2's hair after all the comments they got when they didn't grow ds1's.

hadasa

Wed, Mar 21 2012, 5:02 pm

celestial wrote:

Like instead of taking on more or stricter customs, someone can expend their energy in having kavannah during davening or intensifying kavana during the mitzvos they already do? Focus on gemilas chasadim and increasing their Torah learning? Is this forging a type of connection with Hashem?

Of course adding in Kavanah, learning and Gemilus Chasadim will strengthen one's connection with Hashem! But there are different aspects of connection. Following one's community's Minhagim can accomplish things that Tefilah beKavanah cannot.... And vice versa.

celestial

Wed, Mar 21 2012, 5:04 pm

hadasa wrote:

celestial wrote:

What sort of connection do Minhagim foster? Can you be more specific? Is it about connecting to G-d through connecting to our ancestors? Or through a certain style?

hadasa

Wed, Mar 21 2012, 5:12 pm

From the Chabad.org article I linked to above :

Quote:

But what is a custom—known in
Hebrew as a minhag? I mean, why
is the Jewish legal structure so
complicated? Some mitzvot are
from the Torah, others are “only”
rabbinic in nature, and then there
are the myriads of minhagim. If
G‑d wanted us to do all of these
things, why not just directly
communicate them all?
Here’s one way of looking at it:
We often view a mitzvah as
nothing more than a
commandment that we are
obliged to obey, failing to realize
that a mitzvah is not only a decree
—but a connection. It is our way
of creating a relationship with
G‑d.
The Rebbe once illustrated this
idea using a parable of a father
and a child. There are times when
a father will give his child direct
and precise instructions. For
instance, “Do well in school!” or
“Be careful when crossing the
road!”
On other occasions, he will hint to
his child that he is expecting
something of him. Perhaps by
saying, “We have a lot of dirty
dishes tonight.” The child is
meant to take the hint and wash
the dishes.
Finally, there are those times
when a father will remain totally
silent. Not even a clue does he
offer his child. For example, no
father will mention to his child
that he has an upcoming birthday
in the hope that the child will be
thoughtful enough to buy him a
present. Such a gesture must
come from the child on his own
initiative.
Similarly, there are certain
commandments that G‑d clearly
spelled out in the Torah.
Others were only hinted to us—
perhaps through an extra letter or
superfluous verse in the Torah.
Finally, there are those things that
G‑d didn’t mention to us at all. Yet,
as His children, we know this is
what our Father wants.
Now, I ask you: which of the
abovementioned “duties” takes
precedence?
Disobeying an express order will
certainly have harsher
consequences than merely failing
to catch a hint. And most certainly,
no punishment will be given for
forgetting a father’s birthday.
And as such, if you are focused on
the “commandment” aspect of
the mitzvot, then those that are
written into the Torah take
precedence.
But if we focus on the
“relationship” aspect, it is clear
that the minhag expresses the
deepest bond and richest love
between father and child.
The minhag is the birthday
present.

Last edited by hadasa on Wed, Mar 21 2012, 5:18 pm; edited 1 time in total

sarahd

Wed, Mar 21 2012, 5:17 pm

celestial wrote:

Absolutely, that would be so sweet of you! Or if you any of you know about Elie Weisel's family, he is my 3rd cousin twice removed Smile

On my dad's dad's side..

In that case, it is very possible - even probable - that your grandfather's family came to Vienna from Eastern Europe during or after WWI. That would make tracing your family's origin more complicated, and would also indicate that your family's tradition is not yekkish.

StrongIma

Wed, Mar 21 2012, 5:21 pm

celestial wrote:

What sort of connection do Minhagim foster? Can you be more specific? Is it about connecting to G-d through connecting to our ancestors? Or through a certain style?

there is a specific mitzva in the torah to listen to our chachamim - H' gave them the koach to form new gezeiros, fences (like muktza), mitzvos derabanan (like chanuka and a 2nd day of YT). Kitniyos is really no different than all these and it's part of makes Judaism alive and well and able to change with the times - in a kosher way, not like reform Judaism, yet still alive and able to respond to the modern world of electricity, iPhones and computers.

Judaism comes equipped with a system of change - rules and regulations [think 13 ways the Torah is interpreted] and the chachamim are those who know best how to use them.

StrongIma

Wed, Mar 21 2012, 5:38 pm

celestial wrote:

I think we are talking about different kinds of minhagim (are we trying to address all minhagim here?)
I'm specifically not discussing a Minhag Yisrael.

My objection to the article on minhagim is that they are not chosen individually. A present takes on meaning when we choose it because we know the person we're giving it to and it is representative of our personal relationship.

methinks this thread was originally about an asheknazi eating kitniyos on pesach, if it's an aveira, no?