CHARDAL - please define, and help to identify such kehillos

Tamiri

Mon, Sep 03 2012, 7:14 am

Karnash wrote:

Tablepoetry - we don't disagree. Those salaries are for teachers who are making a career of their profession and putting in all the effort necessary. Most teachers are women, working mothers who can't or don't want to put in the extra hours. Many male teachers do put in the hours and make decent salaries for their famillies. Then, don't forget the summer months where salary can be further supplemented - there are teachers who are tour guides, camp head counselors, etc.

Exactly. I wrote what my father did to make ends meet. You do what you have to. I know male teachers who do double and triple jobs, summer camps, sukkot fairs, chanuka hikes and everything in between. They don't rely on their working-hour income to support a family, because you can't.

Ilovehisboys

Mon, Sep 03 2012, 7:45 am

Misrad HaChinuch has a very specific salary scale, based on degrees, experience, etc. The private schools follow a very general approximate of this formula: 1000 shekel per "hour" per month. So if you work 3 hours a day, you should make 3000 shekel per month. Obviously, this is approximate, and some schools will be slightly higher, some slightly lower.

My husband is in chinuch in RBSA, (with years of teaching experience...) and as others have mentioned, I can tell you that living on his teaching salary alone, would be impossible. There have been years that he has taught in 4 different schools, plus given private lessons. Try making that schedule work! We do what we gotta do to be here, because this is where we need to be right now. But it is hard. (I was also working a full time job until recently, and that contributed to our income, but was pathetic. I've been looking for work again for some time already, but finding the right position isn't easy--especially without Hebrew fluency.)

amother

Mon, Sep 03 2012, 8:04 am

fiddle wrote:

a problem with robberies and cops who don't go anything

I'm not sure the other factors are unique to RBS, but the robbery thing is definitely a HUGE issue. There are nightly break-ins in my area at this point (literally EVERY NIGHT a home within 3 or 4 blocks is broken into), including violence (people being sprayed with mace if they wake up in the middle of the burglary), and the attitude of the police is "well, what can you do, robberies are part of life everywhere". When we lived in NY we were at the edge of a "bad" neighborhood, and although we had numerous cases of GPS systems stolen from cars or strollers stolen from the sidewalk, I do not remember even ONE home invasion in the 6 years we lived there. Sorry, Mr. Policeman, but no, I don't believe it is just "a part of life" to have to jump at every sound all night because you are not willing to do your job.

ewa-jo

Mon, Sep 03 2012, 8:33 am

amother wrote:

ewa -jo
this is OP
I have read about kochav yaakov, I do like the sound of it, I am just worried about my older kids who will be 14 and 12 when we make aliyah. what is it like in KY for olim, will my kids get a lot of help in school? also becasue it is further out the wya, will it be harder for my dh to find a job as a teacher/rebbi ?
another concern is the security, what is the security situation like out there, I am a bit of a scaredy-cat I am afraid.
so, ewa-jo, do yuo think that KY fits our situation as a possibly chardal type place?

We just moved here, so I can't tell you everything, but I think it's a nice place.

It's very close to Jerusalem and the buses are cheap and very frequent. I know a bunch of people who commute to Jerusalem for work. As far as security, I feel safe. To tell you the truth, no place in Israel is completely 'safe'... but there is good security on the yishuv and I actually prefer being here to being in Jerusalem where there are arabs there 24/7 just roaming around.

I have met a bunch of anglos and there are shiurim in english and stuff like that.

I suppose you could even send your teenagers to English schools in Jerusalem.... it's not so far and I know that some people here send their kids to school in Jerusalem (for one reason or another)

Here's the one thing that drew us here... it's cheap! You will be able to rent (or buy) a good-sized house for a lot less than many places in Israel. We are paying 40% less rent here than we were paying in our overpriced Jerusalem neighborhood.

It's a very nice community (a few imamother posters live here!) with almost all kinds of frum people, so I'm sure you would be able to find somewhere to fit in.

If you want info about schools and what to do with teenagers, here is the name of a nice anglo couple in the yishuv who would know all this info from personal experience. They would be more than happy to help you.
Susie & Shlomo Benzaquen
shlomoben@aol.com

Peanut2

Mon, Sep 03 2012, 9:49 am

There are many variables at play with regard to pay and you should speak to someone at NBN.

I have no idea how it works in charedi schools. When paid through the govt pay is based on your degree and tenure. The longer you've worked the more you can make. I don't know how they look at your work experience from abroad. You need to ask NBN. Most/all [male] teachers have another job or jobs. Many have a 2nd job in a different field! Staying in education, though, tutoring is big, and you need to market yourself to people who can afford to pay more and in subjects that pay more. Similarly, flexibility can help a lot. Is your DH willing to teach a variety of subjects as needed? Is he willing to teach in girls' schools? DL schools? Chiloni schools? Then there are summers. Of course, getting better jobs is more competitive. So it is very, very difficult for us to know. But in order to get by as a teacher one needs to have more than one job. And to take more on and to be flexible.

Also, you will need to work. I've been trying to emphasize it but bottom line you will absolutely need to work.
However, in Israel it is part of the culture for women to work and you will not meet Israeli women and will not be part of the culture as a SAHM. There are good maternity benefits and leave, so women work.
Lawyers and doctors are part of dual income salaries because it is difficult on one and working moms get perks. In your case it will be an absolute necessity. Again, depending on what you bring to the table your income could be quite good, but in any case it will be a substantial part of the household income.

Also, are people's numbers pre-tax?

m in Israel

Mon, Sep 03 2012, 11:55 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Tablepoetry wrote:

I haven't read the whole thread, but I will say that IME chardal is very Israeli. I can't think of many chardal anglos - they aren't chardal, they are something else.
Also, as a rule, if you want an area with anglos, it will be a lot more expensive than an area without anglos.

I know quite a few chardalnikim that are anglo. Why do you think it is not an anglo thing too? It is not only Israelis.

I am not in the "Chardal" community, but I have also found that Israeli Chardal is not so easily translated into Anglos. Most Anglos I know who would consider themselves chardal are really more right wing MO which is not exactly the same thing. I have Israeli cousins who are "real" Israeli Chardal -- he is actually a Rav in Ramat Shilo -- and one difference I have found is that Israeli Chardal puts much more of a stress on Limud Torah and tend to be much more machmir in many Halachic issues then the Anglos who use the same label. Meaning even though they don't dress at all Chareidi, their practices are still much more right wing then the Americans identifying with the same community. Many of the actual Halachic practices as well as hashkafos (such as with regard to exposure to the outside world -- tv, etc.) are pretty close to American "yeshivish" -- with the added dimension of being extremely committed to the concept of Yishuv Haaretz (and sometimes, although not always, Medinas Yisroel).

But in either case, I think the OP would do better worrying less about the labels and more about finding a specific community that both she and her husband can be comfortable with. Even within the same "type" every neighborhood has a different nuance, and those nuances can be significant.

amother

Mon, Sep 03 2012, 10:42 pm

OP here

wow,a lot of responses, thanks!
ilovehisboys - could yo possibly give more specifics about the kind of salary a rebbi/teacher can expect in RBS please?

to the amother who moved with a 13 year old child to an israeli community, would you mind tellning me which amazing comunity helped your kids to adjust so well, and could you please tell me how you think they adjusted so well, what you attribute it to and what yu did to make that happen (apart from siyata dishmaya of course).

shuly adn tablepoetry (most recent posts) - the chardal families who you know, who you write hardly seem different to chariedi families, : who are their rabbanim - this is a very important question to me - do they follow the chareidi gedolim or do they follow the DL Rabbanim and Rav Kook?

shabbatiscoming - coul d you please teell me more about hte chardalnikim whom you know, where do they live, in what ways do you describe them as chardal, do they live around other anglos or mostly israelis?

thanks aagain everyone, I really apreciate your advice and comments

TIA

Peanut2

Mon, Sep 03 2012, 11:01 pm

I'm not one of the people you asked, but from my experience:
"chardal"/torani DL people follow DL rabbis. They do not follow charedi rabbis. At all.

However, many values relating to Torah learning, secular studies, and male/female issues are similar to charedi society. So for example, guys learning in a place like Merkaz Harav Kook postpone their army service. Merkaz is not a hesder yeshiva, it's a yeshiva gedola. So they postpone and learn. However, unlike charedi guys, they will serve after a certain amount of time. (By that time many are married, many have kids, so army service may be quite shortened, but they do it.)
After marriage, you will find guys in kollel. People may ask a rav many questions, including on topics that MO people generally wouldn't.
Attitude to secular studies is not the same as charedim, but not like regular DL people, and definitely not like MO poeple. Like I said, postponing army service for yeshiva means that studying is also postponed. Some people may not be professionals if it allows them to learn. And there is a big trend to avoiding more secular institutions and studying in places that offer separate classes for men and women and in a religious environment. But in Israeli charedi schools guys stop studying 'secular' studies by 14 I believe, and that's totally not the case AFAIK

This is a good place to mention that this is a lot more of a continuum in my opinion. It's not like there is one standard that everyone must obey. Just certain people identify themselves as more torani.

So more about what it means: strict about hechsherim, keeping chalav yisrael, very modest dress but very israeli style. I know women who will only wear skirts that brush the floor - or are about ankle length - because it's considered more modest. Greater and greater separation between boys and girls. Dating for marriage very early. Again, though, everything is true for some but not all. There is no entrance exam.

Honestly, it all depends on where you live and who your friends are and where your kids go to school.What someone else does across the country is far less important. I think you need to visit places, and I also think you need to see what works for you. Someone else's rebbi salary doesn't matter if that's not what your DH makes. And what anyone makes depends on so many things... things that imamother will not help you with so much. And I'll post this til I'm blue in the face: you really need to think of job opportunities for you.

Ilovehisboys

Mon, Sep 03 2012, 11:07 pm

I'm happy to share what I know, but I'm not sure what else you're looking for. Everything will depend on where he can get a job. But there is a difficult catch-22. Administrators won't even speak to him until he's already settled here; they are not interested in resumes from America. This is an unequivocal truth.
Flexibility is important, and being willing to take small jobs (tutoring, subbing) is important. Get a foot in the door, because when a position opens up, schools always try to hire from within first.
If you decide to move to RBS, feel free to private message me and I will be able to give you contact names in many of the schools.

amother

Mon, Sep 03 2012, 11:26 pm

hi this is OP again

so ,, peanut2, I get it! I need to think of job opportunities for myself too! I hear you loud and clear each time you post it! thank you! I appreciate your advice a lot, thank you for taking the time to continue to post.
only prob is I have no qualifications and my main job experience is in childcare, pleaygroups, babysitting which I am assuming does not pay too well. I was thinking that maybe I could find a course to do in my local community college before I leave the US, any ideas what kind of thing I could do in less than a year whichcould lead to a marketable skill in a place like RBS?

thank you for your clear chardal definitions - very helpful post. -, I understand that you are saying that it varies a lot. do you know what the view is on secular education, I assume that not all chardal go to kollel or into chinuch like the majority of israeli chareidim.
also, what would you say is the difference between chareidi and DL/chardal rabbonim - it sounds like chardal rabbonim are very strict in halachah, is the difference only in hashkafa then? if so, what are the main hashkafic differences?

I am now getting a picture that not all chardal do hesder. is that correct?

so, peanut, the big question, where are the best places to live with chardal type rabbanim and neighbors with at least some kind of anglo presence????

Thank you very much ILOVEHISBOYS . nbn told my husband the same - you can't expect to get a job until y ou get to Israel. now that sounds really stressful to me, I hope I have enough bitachon for this. I appreciate your offer to pm you if we decide on RBS, I will keep that in mind. what is typical wage for a full time teaching job?

Marion

Mon, Sep 03 2012, 11:56 pm

Childcare pays VERY well, if you're private and willing to work full time, depending on your neighbourhood. Metaplot running mishpachtonim where I live take 14-1600NIS/child/month! (The official TAMAT rate, if you're "licensed", is about 1700NIS/child/month this year...more for infants.) Even after your expenses (some of which you can deduct), you can bring in 5000NIS/month...definitely the equivalent of a full time administrative (secretarial/receptionist...) salary. And withouth the commute. It is, however, hard work. And almost no time off (except in August.)

amother

Tue, Sep 04 2012, 12:09 am

OP here

thank you Marion! is there such a thing in Israel as the kind of playgroup/gan that I have been running in chul - just half day for the duration of hte school year , ie. September thru june/july? adn the kind of salary you mentioned would presumably be for the main Morah of the mishpachton, not just for an assisstant? I ask that because I think it could take quite a long time for my ivrit to become good enough for me to become the main or only morah unless of course I am offering an english speaking playgroup in a high percengtage anglo area like RBS