CHARDAL - please define, and help to identify such kehillos

Marion

Tue, Sep 04 2012, 1:07 am

There is. The salary I mentioned was for full time, though, not part time. If you were looking to do a part-time mishpachton (generally 7:30-1:30 Sun-Thurs) you could probably charge up to 1000NIS/child/month, and your expenses would be less. But depending on your locale that might be considered a lot for such a service. I know here the English-speaking metaplot who do mishpachton/playgroup get 1100-1200NIS/month and have a group of 5 or 6. But in more charedi areas such an amount would be considered very expensive; I think there they pay around 700NIS/month. Mishpachtonim don't generally have assistants unless they have a larger group (over 6 or 7 kids) because it's not worth it financially.

Peanut2

Tue, Sep 04 2012, 1:16 am

Sorry OP, I know I'm a nudnik. But you may be able to do other things in Israel, too. How is your Hebrew? And what's wrong with working with children? If you have a degree you can do more, but I wouldn't discount going that way. Maybe some other posters know more about ganenet possibilities, and I would brainstorm other ideas, too. But I have friends who work in childcare and are doing okay.

Charedim and chardal: The differences aren't just hashkafa. They are social and cultural.

While learning Torah is emphasized, there is still a positive attitude toward non-Torah learning, as well as things like art, music, poetry, connecting with nature, as enhancing our connection to Torah and Hashem. And of course providing for our families. So people have lots of different jobs and professions. It's not like charedi society in Israel. Doctors, lawyers, farmers, musicians, teachers (not just LK, science and math male teachers, too).
Followers of Rav Kook are into learning Emunah and Machshava and that is a big part of the learning. Not just Gemara.
There is a strong emphasis on influencing Israeli society and your neighborhood and community, not remaining insular. Though there is some of that, too. There are yishuvim where no one has a television, for example.

Here are some websites of the chardal persuasion:

http://e.yeshiva.org.il/default.aspx

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Har_Hamor

http://e.yeshiva.org.il/ask/?cat=133 - Q and A on issues of Torah and secular world

http://www.midreshetaviv.co.il.....-aviv

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3s2j5WU2-0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....elmfu -

amother

Tue, Sep 04 2012, 1:24 am

OP here

peanut2 - you are not a nudnik, I did not mean to offend you at all chas veshalom! Hug

you are seriously helpful , thank you! my hebrew is not that great, it will improve fast though once I land in israel, my language skills are generally excellent BH.

Marion, thanks again, this sounds promising and hopeful. I assume that if I began by working in a gan or mishpachton as an employee rather than working for myself, then I would earn less. any ideas about a salary for working in a gan or mishpachton, maybe you know of an hourly rate? and what is minimum wage in israel? thanks

amother

Tue, Sep 04 2012, 2:11 am

WAIT: NEWS FLASH

The monthly minimum wage in Israel will rise from NIS 4,100 to NIS 4,300 ($1,069) starting October 1.

The minimum hourly wage will be NIS 23.12 ($5.75).

The minimum monthly wage for youths under 16 will be NIS 3,010, or 70% of the adult minimum wage.

For youths aged 16, minimum wage will be NIS 3,225, and for those aged 17, NIS 3,569.

m in Israel

Tue, Sep 04 2012, 3:33 am

I think peanut's descriptions of Chardal are extremely on target. I'd like to add that the more extensive secular studies applies to women as well, post high school. In Chareidi circles, the girls generally do their Bagrut, but acceptable post high school learning is more limited -- they stick to Bais Yaakov sponsored programs, etc. In Chardal circles it would be more acceptable for a woman to get a more standard advanced degree -- even something like medical school -- although obviously that will vary from circle to circle, too. And I think the Hesder point is a good one -- many of the Israeli "Chardal" people I know postpone army service in order to learn in full time yeshivas or even Kollels, but then do serve in the army at a slightly later age. They don't do the "half and half" style of Hesder.

As far as a private part time gan in RBS, I can tell you that I sent my son to an English speaking private gan when he was 2 1/2. I paid just under 600 nis a month for 8:30 -- 1:00 (till 11:30 on Fridays). There were 8 kids in the group and one teacher, no assistant. (Keep in mind in Israel Sunday is a regular workday!) I believe there is a market for these "mini-gannim" here, despite the fact that there are a lot of them, because most are small, and it is very common here to send kids to gan at a young age. There are many parents who want an English speaking program for kids that young -- once you get to 3 year olds, I think even the parents who want private gans (because the public ones have 30 + kids in a group even at this age!) are more interested in a Hebrew speaking environment.

Tablepoetry

Tue, Sep 04 2012, 8:13 am

Ganim - yes, there will be less of a market for 3 yr olds from now on.
You will probably draw a lot more clients if you offer an English gan. Even regular Israelis want their kids exposed to English.
Prices for ganim vary wildly, depending on location.

I agree with peanut pretty much on everything regarding chardal descriptions. In general, when I said they are kind of similar to charedi, I meant in their distancing from secular culture. You won't find a Yediot (secular newspaper) on their coffee table on shabbat. You may find it in many DL homes. Many of their schools ban the kids from listening to 'lo-azi' music (I guess the translation would be non-Jewish?). Things like that.

Do remember that chardal will vary immensely depending on location.

chanchy123

Tue, Sep 04 2012, 3:35 pm

amother wrote:

which are the chardal yishuvim? any with anglos? would nof ayalon be chardal?

I think Nof Ayalon is THE happening place for chardal olim. It is also a bit less classic Israeli Kooknik chardal oriented. I think Yad Binyamin is another option.
Bear in mind, these places are not cheap.
if you are looking for a place that is not necessarily Anglo and beyond the Green Line, you have many options, depending on your comfort level.

chanchy123

Tue, Sep 04 2012, 3:50 pm

amother wrote:

OP here

wow,a lot of responses, thanks!
ilovehisboys - could yo possibly give more specifics about the kind of salary a rebbi/teacher can expect in RBS please?

to the amother who moved with a 13 year old child to an israeli community, would you mind tellning me which amazing comunity helped your kids to adjust so well, and could you please tell me how you think they adjusted so well, what you attribute it to and what yu did to make that happen (apart from siyata dishmaya of course).

shuly adn tablepoetry (most recent posts) - the chardal families who you know, who you write hardly seem different to chariedi families, : who are their rabbanim - this is a very important question to me - do they follow the chareidi gedolim or do they follow the DL Rabbanim and Rav Kook?

shabbatiscoming - coul d you please teell me more about hte chardalnikim whom you know, where do they live, in what ways do you describe them as chardal, do they live around other anglos or mostly israelis?

thanks aagain everyone, I really apreciate your advice and comments

TIA

Many chardal people value Chareidi rabbanim very much. They don't necesserily follow them, but have a lot of respect for them (they may ask them certain questions in certain situations). Well respected rabbanim (by most DL from very chardal leftwards) are Rav Shmuel Eliyahu, Rav Yakov Ariel, Rav Zalman Melamed, Rav Dov Lior, off the top of my head. Har Hamor (most RW chardal yeshiva) crowd follows Rav Tzvi Tau, there is also Rav Tal, who leads another branch of Chardal (non-Zionist, but very into Eretz Yisrael) and many many more rabbanim.
There are Anglo chardalnikim, but usually the more chardal they are, the deeper they blend in to the Israeli crowd and shed their Anglo affiliation (more for ideological reasons than social reasons).

curlgirl

Tue, Sep 04 2012, 3:53 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

curlgirl wrote:

Maybe Gush Etzion? Alon Shvut?

It may be that it used to be very chardalnik like, but now a days, alon shvut has all walks of MO/DL living there.

Actually, it's the younger people there who tend to be chardal.

But no, it's not an insular chardal community at all. Didn't realize that was a requirement.

chanchy123

Tue, Sep 04 2012, 3:55 pm

curlgirl wrote:

Maybe Gush Etzion? Alon Shvut?

Not so much, the community around the yeshiva maybe would be more chardal, but most people end up leaving when they leave the yeshiva (as I'm told by people who've left and come to my yishuv). Bat Ayin or Karmei Tzur are better (and very different from one another) options.
I guess it really depends also what you define as chardal, some people might consider me chardal because I only wear skirts below my knee, I cover almost all my hair, wear shirts to my elbow, we don't have a tv, and we try to eat mehadrin chicken and meat.

amother

Tue, Sep 04 2012, 3:57 pm

OP here

chanchy adn shabbat , those were very helpful posts.
yes shabbat, I noticed that yad binyamin is tottaly out of te equation...way too expensive

chanchy - is the respect mutual, I mean do chareidim or at least the chareidi rabbonim respect the dl or chardal rabbonim?
also , the rabbonim that you mentioned hwo are chardal, where are they located, are they all in shomron or on the west of the green line, out of interest?
who is rav tal, what does it mean that htey are not zionist? you write non-zionist but very into eretzxyisrel, what does that mean please? wow, this is fascinating.
also, when you say the more chardal the anglo chardalnik is, the more he blends in to israeli chardal. how would you define someone as becoming so chardal that he sheds his anglo stuff?

TIA, you are really being extremely helpful.