CHARDAL - please define, and help to identify such kehillos

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Sep 04 2012, 4:10 pm

curlgirl wrote:

shabbatiscoming wrote:

curlgirl wrote:

Maybe Gush Etzion? Alon Shvut?

It may be that it used to be very chardalnik like, but now a days, alon shvut has all walks of MO/DL living there.

Actually, it's the younger people there who tend to be chardal.

But no, it's not an insular chardal community at all. Didn't realize that was a requirement.

Actually I think it is just the young couples/families that are connected to the yeshiva that you are referring to. We have a few friends in alon shvut who are young and they are without a doubt not at all charedi. I would consider them very MODERN orthodox. So, it may have been that way once, but now it is for sure not mostly chardalnik at all, a complete mix

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Sep 04 2012, 4:12 pm

Peanut2 wrote:

Well, people who are very ideological and chardal-ish might only speak Hebrew to their kids and not leave eretz yisrael unless they absolutely must. Some make aliyah and never leave the land. So yeah, if you speak Hebrew to your kids you are shedding your anglo-ness Smile

If this is one of the many definitions of chardal, I know a wonderful (anglo) family like this. But you are correct, they talk only hebrew to their kids and try to shed their anglo-ness. And he would for sure not leave eretz yisrael unless it was extremely important.

chanchy123

Tue, Sep 04 2012, 4:24 pm

amother wrote:

OP here

chanchy adn shabbat , those were very helpful posts.
yes shabbat, I noticed that yad binyamin is tottaly out of te equation...way too expensive

chanchy - is the respect mutual, I mean do chareidim or at least the chareidi rabbonim respect the dl or chardal rabbonim?
also , the rabbonim that you mentioned hwo are chardal, where are they located, are they all in shomron or on the west of the green line, out of interest?
who is rav tal, what does it mean that htey are not zionist? you write non-zionist but very into eretzxyisrel, what does that mean please? wow, this is fascinating.
also, when you say the more chardal the anglo chardalnik is, the more he blends in to israeli chardal. how would you define someone as becoming so chardal that he sheds his anglo stuff?

TIA, you are really being extremely helpful.

Unfortunately, at least publicly this repsect is not mutual on a personal individual level there is respect. In Chareidi newspapers you will find DL rabbanim to appear either without their title or with the title Rav Ploni instead of Rav Hagaon Ploni given to Chareidi rabbanim.
These rabbanim are located all over Rav Eliyahu (son of Rav Mordechai Eliyahu, one of the gdolim of the DL and Sphardi communities) is in Tzfat, but I don't think he represents a large local community, Rav Yakov Ariel is in Ramat Gan (which is near Tel Aviv), Rav Lior is in Kiryat Arba, Rav Melamed is in Beit El and Rav Tau is in Yerushalayim.
Rav Tal is in Yad Binyamin, he does not believe in the medina as a religous ideal but feels very strongly about EY. Actually, many RW DL are on this spectrum, usually with a very high level of observence, they are known as the hilltop youth, but can also be found in places like Yitzhar and Bat Ayin.
Anglos who become more idelogical chardal will usually make an effort to speak almost exclusively in Hebrew, no visits abroad accept for extreme cases, rejection of Western materialistic culture, etc.

Oh and many people will define someone as chardal if he is more RW than they are.

chanchy123

Tue, Sep 04 2012, 4:31 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

curlgirl wrote:

shabbatiscoming wrote:

curlgirl wrote:

Maybe Gush Etzion? Alon Shvut?

It may be that it used to be very chardalnik like, but now a days, alon shvut has all walks of MO/DL living there.

Actually, it's the younger people there who tend to be chardal.

But no, it's not an insular chardal community at all. Didn't realize that was a requirement.

There sure is a mix, I also think many of the more frum families are connected to the yeshiva, I know a lot of the more modern families are leaving. Even so, I don't think these families are necesserily chareidi chardal, like we were discussing in this thread.
I understand that the recent elections were very much about this change, with Davidi representing the more chardal minded people of the new neighborhood in AS and Yair, the old fashioned more tolerant and liberal Gush families.

chanchy123

Tue, Sep 04 2012, 4:57 pm

curlgirl wrote:

What is chareidi chardal?!

I thought we were discussing DL torani type people.

Like I said before, *if* that's what we're discussing, Mitzpe Nevo in Maale Adumim might be good.

I missed a big chunk in the middle of the thread, but I gather we're talking Har Hamor, Ulpanat Rav Baharan, Nof Ayalon type of people, not DL torani type of people, which I would totally identify with, there are plenty of options if you go that route.
They have a chareidi mindset, strong respect for chareidi rabbanim and values (but not the external things like dress code or shidduch demands).
I think OP's DH would be very comfortable in any DL torani community (such as in Guh or MA) but I'm not sure this is what OP has in mind for herself.

chanchy123

Wed, Sep 05 2012, 12:33 am

stillgrowing wrote:

Anyone ever hear abt Neve Aliza? I heard abt it awhile ago so I really don't know that much about it. It is an American, religiously right-wing, zionistic yishuv within Karnei Shomron. Again, I don't know much else, but this might be a community for the OP to get more information about.

I grew up there, this is NOT a chardal community.
I'm still not certain OP actually wants to live in a chardal community, but if we're sticking to labels here, this isn't one (however there are several families who probably fit the bill).

5*Mom

Wed, Sep 05 2012, 3:18 am

chanchy123 wrote:

stillgrowing wrote:

I think it would be much more productive for OP to list the specific features she is looking for in a community. Then imamothers can make suggestions without confusing labels which, as has been mentioned a few times, tend to vary from place to place.

chanchy123

Wed, Sep 05 2012, 3:53 am

5*Mom wrote:

chanchy123 wrote:

stillgrowing wrote:

Hey, I totally agree.

amother

Thu, Sep 06 2012, 12:13 am

Hi, this is Op
thank you all for your replies. I am gleaning huge amounts of information from this thread thank you.
As stated before, I started this thread to find out more about what chardal means and to see which communities have a decent sized chardal presence. As I said originally, my dh is disillusioned with the chareidi way of life. he no longer considers himself chareidi evenn though I do. my kids wear black velvet aand are in an OOT comunity school which is run by chareidim. my dh currently wears black knitted yarmulka, is comfortble in polo shirts, khakis and no black hat. he would describe himself as very right wing MO in the uSA, he believes that kids should not mix genders at school or at play, no TV, only videos that he picks for the kids carefully, only filtered internet, and complete tznius of dress. that is, he is happy with the way I dress, not israeli chareidi style, but american chareidi style - sheitel or snood, long skirts, not tight tops, cover elbows, always wear socks or tights.
so, we would like to consider aliyah and are looking for a coommmunity with anglo support ot help our young teens and pre-teen adjust well, and also a kehilla of like minded people with a similar style of shemiras hamitzvos. we wondered if chardal was the right style. also in a secure place, pref not over the green line because I am a scaredy-cat!

so, after that re-introductin, thnak s for all the recommendations. I am concerned by the polarisation in israeli society adn cannot quite imagine where we would fit in. The honest truth is, evern if dh was chareidi and woudl want a chareidi kehilla and schools etc, I would not feel toohappy with it, becasue I think it would be too hard for my americnized kids.

what is the difference between chardal and right wing DL?

does anyone know anything about sheinfeld/givat sharett - who lives there, does it sound like it would be a comfotable place for us?

amother

Thu, Sep 06 2012, 12:39 am

OP, your description of yourself is somewhat similar to my family. I've had a very difficult time finding a place for us. As you have been finding out, generally you have to choose between DL and Chareidi. Even a community or school that calls itself chardal is usually DL and not very strict about thing you hold dear to you (like outside influences). I'll cont. more later bli neder I have to run.

amother

Thu, Sep 06 2012, 2:58 am

12:39 amother here.
OP, I don't feel like we're a success story so I hope this helps without being discouraging. It's been very difficult. We live in Yerushalayim in a mixed, but mostly chareidi area. We don't feel so part of a community. Our children go to a chareidi school because B"H we felt we found a school that was the best match out of the options. If Jerusalem is a possibility for you I can talk specific schools with you (my kids are fairly young, so I am more knowledgeable about younger grades).. With older kids like yours I would look into Ramat Beit Shemesh where they would integrate better. And carefully consider aliyah at all for that matter if they are doing well where they are. I did not read this entire thread, so I don't know what has been covered.

Beit shemesh, as in sheinfeld, I do not necessarily recommend for you based on what you say about yourself. But get many opinions and visit for yourself, I'm just a lady on a website. My reason I that it's modern orthodox and due to the problems with some crazy RBS Bet neighbors (a small, loud group), it's rather anti-chareidi and kids are very cynical as are parents about anything that is the slightest bit chareidi. Like naming their kids an Israeli name because names like Rivka or Devorah are too chareidi. I don't think you want that environment.

Tamiri

Thu, Sep 06 2012, 7:42 am

One problem, which may need to be addressed by other people elsewhere, is that people from chu"l aren't realizing that they harbor a chu"l mentality and way of observance, which may not be appropriate when living in EY. I think part of Aliya on *everyone's* part is the mental switch that needs to occur when moving away from chu"l to Israel. Rather than looking for a place which will match what you did in chu"l, it pays to move and open your mind to the options available in Israel, of which there are many. They just aren't the same as those available in chu"l. I don't know what OP must be thinking when she read Chareidi/Right wing MO/DL/Chardal etc. but I am sure that many times she's thinking oranges while people here are talking tangerines. Close, but not the same.
I grew up in a home where my father had smicha, my maternal grandfather was a chavruta of Rav Kahanaman and Torah study was emphasized. However, my mother did not cover her hair and she wore slacks, as was the regular and usual custom among her peers. When we arrived in Israel, that had to change. We didn't turn Chareidi and we did not turn unobservant. We adapted to what was expected in the circle we chose to live among. Girls and women of our ilk here in Israel did not wear pants or sleeveless. So we stopped. We adapted.
I don't know many mothers of my friends who covered their hair, yet as that became the standard, women my age and younger did tend to cover. And so on. We adapted to life here so that we'd fit in. And I think that you can do that too.
We had to relearn our davening - it's different in EY and that's fine. So now we don't have an Ashkenazi havarah anymore, it's Sfardi. Perfect. We've melded.
What are you worried about? That the education will be different? It will be (I am not referring to kids over 5th grade here - that's a whole 'nother ball game). The food won't be kosher? The chazzan won't be what you are used to? The clothes won't be the same? Why all this advanced worrying about fitting in to a particular mindset? If you don't think you can adapt to what's available, I think you need to reconsider aliya because there is a lot of adapting you will have to do.
Just my 2c worth.