CHARDAL - please define, and help to identify such kehillos

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Forum -> Inquiries & Offers -> Israel related Inquiries & Aliyah Questions

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amother

Tue, Aug 28 2012, 5:13 am

Smiling Wife wrote:

Where is Moriah and what is the boys yeshivas "equivalent" to it? Are there CHardal yeshivos in RBS-A? Or are the yeshivos mainly charedi or american yeshivish? I ve been here for a few months and still have no clue.

Moriah is on Arugot, there are a few other schools near it. There is a boys school and a girls school both called Moriah. They are Chardal, the boys in the school mostly wear kippot srugot. As for other types of schools, there is a school for everything in RBS.

amother

Tue, Aug 28 2012, 9:07 am

so if I wear my sheitel I'll b rejected? why no sheitel for the ashkanazim?

Karnash

Tue, Aug 28 2012, 9:25 am

Chardal won't "reject" you for wearing a shaitel - but most of the others will probably be wearing tichels or other head coverings.

amother

Tue, Aug 28 2012, 9:32 am

new poster-
I think you're pinpointing the biggest issue Americans have when they try to fit in here. Most Americans seem to have Chardal hashkafos, but they follow chareidi gedolim.

For example, they wear black yarmulkas, khakis and polo shirts, support Israeli soldiers and they hold that that Rav Elyashiv zt"l was the gadol hador. They send their kids to college but are also be proud of their son/cousin/brother-in-law who learns in kollel. They wear black hats on shabbos, ask their shailos to their chareidi rav - who quotes Rav Moshe Feinstein and Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach and their wives dress totally tznius but wear denim skirts.

I grew up like this and when I moved to Israel, I chose to join the chareidi life. However, I have a brother who wants to make aliyah and I don't think he would be able to conform to the chareidi life. On the other hand, he has a very strong chashivus hatorah, of people who learn in kollel, and chashivus of chareidi gedolim and would not be comfortable in a place where that was not accepted.

In my experience, although the parents are in-between, the kids usually end up DL.

amother

Tue, Aug 28 2012, 10:53 am

Hi everyone, this is OP

thanks so much for all the responses. the information included is extremely valuable to me, I ams so happy that I have imamother as a resource!

to the previous poster at 9.32am:
why do you think it is that the kids often end up DL when they come from american style chareidi homes?

the reason why I htink we are looking at chardal is because my DH is the khaki/polo shirt type, but no hat, but he has issues with the chareidi gedolim and chareidi life altogether Sad

. not so me. yes, unfortuantely we are not 100% on teh same wavelength as I mentioned in my first post, but we are determined to work together. We will be coming with kids aged 1 - 13 from an OOT american community. right now my kids are in a commu ity school which is run by chareidim, my dh feels that the kids get brainwahsed to be chareidi and does not want that anymore. that is why I think chardal is the next step.

does anyone have any more information on Moriah and rapaports, like what are the differences vis a vis secular studies, hashkafa of he school, ht efamilies that send there. etc.???

can anyone tell me more about beit shemesh versus ramat beit shemes aleph. it seems that most of the anglos I know are in ramat beit shemesh aleph, but most of them are more chareidi than we are.

a previous poster mentioned htat most of hte chardal people they know are not anglos, but are israeli, or defiintely not new olim. can anyone confirm that? does htat mean that most olim who have their kids in moriah or rapaports are really chareidi-lite/ american chareidi, ie, support kollel, chareidi gedolim, wear hat on shabbos. so who exactly are those 60% english speakers tht nbn says are in rapaports and the 25% that nbn says are in moriah?

so many questions.... sigh...
thanks again to those who are responding , you will get tremendous schar for helping my family fulfil the mitzva of yishuv ha'aretz iy'H! please keep answering!

Tamiri

Tue, Aug 28 2012, 11:30 am

Can I make a suggestion about your personal life? Of course I can, this is the internet.
Well, here goes:
I suggest that you straighten out your differences BEFORE you make aliya. Making aliya and living in Israel in general are incredibly stressful. It doesn't help to come with a load of baggage to add to that. You run the very real risk of creating more problems than you are dealing with currently.
Just my 2 cents.

amother

Tue, Aug 28 2012, 11:50 am

OP here, thank you Tamiri for your concern. obviously challenges com;e with a change in hashkafa, but as I said, I am working with it. I have no alternative. personally I would proably handle israeli chareidi, but I wouldn't love it with the dressc odes etc. but, for my family to stay together as a family unit, if I can find a chardal community with good schools, a job for dh, adn a certaina mount of anglo support network to help my older ones adjust, then I will handle that change alright. say no more.

dh and I do love each other, have no fear, but here in the US there are very few schools that fit his mold, of right wing MO including gender segregation, no TV etc. he is not MO/DL per se, just he is no longer chareidi. I gueess he is really JPF just plain frum, the way our parents were, the way we grew up 30 -40 years ago, before the major polarisation started here in chul. our looking into aliyah is mainly because we think the chardal mold is that inbetween that we dont have enough of here in usa.
and btw, I have always wanted to live in israe,. I know there are challenges too though.

honestly, I like hte sound of nof ayalon, but a) it sounds too expensive to live in, we could not manage without a car,etc, and b) it does not have the huge anglo support systenm that my older kids will need.
which is why I keep talking about RBS...

if anyone has any info about chardal communities and schools in ramot, I would also be interested in hearing about it. thanks.

anyone know about the differences between rbs aleph and beit shemesh (sheinfeld and givat sharet)???

TIA

In the kitchen

Tue, Aug 28 2012, 12:04 pm

Our moshav is chardal. 70 families, 4 families speak English. Several people can hold simple conversations in English.

We have viznitz minhagim but not the Israeli chassidish hashkafa. Many minhagim here and everyone respects eachothers minhagim. We all daven together and the nusach changes depending on who leads the davening. Yom tovim there are separate minyanim for ashkenaz, sepahardi and teimani.

Really warm and welcoming community. You can pm me or ask more questions here if you want to know more. Now I will read the rest of the thread Smile

amother

Tue, Aug 28 2012, 12:29 pm

I live in Nof Ayalon, I don't know how much more it is than Sheinfeld-but the public transportation situation is better there.
I'll be happy to give you more information if you want. But in terms of headcoverings- there are tons of scarves, mitpachot, etc...but sheitels are pretty common too. I wear mine and never feel self conscious.

In the kitchen

Tue, Aug 28 2012, 12:33 pm

OK now that I finished reading everyone's posts...

in our completely chardal community it is like this:

bnei akiva is separate boys and girls

education is separate from 5-6 years of age

most people send the boys to talmud Torah (focus on Torah learning)

not everyone goes to army, most do, girls usually go to sheirut leumi and some boys choose kollel instead, the great part is that no one judges eachother for whichever path they choose

One lady here wears a shaital, everyone else wears tichels (mitpachot) but there would be no problem with whatever head covering you choose)

Everyone here that has internet (most families) all have filtered. I only know of one family that has television to get satellite french channels but their children are all older also.

None of the women wear pants, but two sometimes wear something like a skirt that is gathered on each leg similar to pants, maybe think really baggy skirt pants? Hard to describe...never saw them before I came here, anyhow definitely not a men's article of clothing.

Everyone covers their hair, a couple of women have an inch or two or hair showing, everyone here covers to their elbows.

The rav here speaks english, he is originally from NY. He is amazing and warm and everyone on the yishuv respects him, there are no politics in this regard. He paskens for each familiy according to that particular families shitta (ex when we asked a shaila he consulted with a Vizhnitzer posek in bnei brak to answer us).
Really warm, approachable and very learned.

If you have a car it takes an hour to commute to Jlm from here which many choose to do. There are jobs around here depending on what you are looking for. The cost of rent here is incredibly low, if you add the cost of a car and gas to it you will end up paying the same as you would for rent in the city but for a healthier and higher quality life surrounded by a supportive community, in my opinion.

Here if someone has a problem with you they will approach you in person and talk to you people don't talk behind others back.

I could go on Smile

My dh is the only one with a shtreimel but there are often charedi visitors for Shabbos and one of the young couples here the father of the bride is a chassidishe Rebbe in Beit Shemesh.

We wear black velvet kippot but everyone else here wears varying sizes kippa sruga.

Not everyone here supports the medina, in fact many don't ever since Gush Katif but everyone believes in yishuv eretz Yisroel.

We looked around a lot, lived here once and then lived in two other places here until we recognized just how wonderful a place this is for us.

You are more than welcome to come for a Shabbos and check it out. Because we are a small community there is a klita (acceptance) process. You need to come for a Shabbos - at no charge to you - you need to do a graphology test for a small fee and then you sit together with the klita members for an interview to get to know eachother and see if our community is a good fit for you and your family.

amother

Tue, Aug 28 2012, 12:34 pm

9:32 amother -

As my Israeli friend taught me before I moved here:
In Israel, everything is very black and white. Everyone has to fit into a specific mold. It's not like America where we're all the Jewish minority so everyone basically sticks together. You have to decide before you come what you are going to be - and it's not easy to change.

That's why the kids are more likely to be DL because if you're not going to send them to chareidi schools and fit in with the chareidi world, you're not going to be considered chareidi and they're very unlikely to turn out chareidi. If you don't send them to chareidi schools, they will most probably be DL, even if their parents are somewhat chareidi.

In America, (especially out of town) because you can have a mixture of all types in one class, the kids can come out either way - depending on who their friends are, what summer camps they go to, what seminary or yeshiva in Israel they go to, etc.

amother

Tue, Aug 28 2012, 12:45 pm

OP here. thanks all
inthe kitchen, that was a great post, I am now so curious! I do not want to pm you and lose my anonymity bec of the personal details that I have diviulged. where do you live? I really feel that it sounds good for me to think about and look into your moshav, the only prob is hte lack of anglo support in school for hte kids? ami right> please tell me whre you live!

ora_43

Tue, Aug 28 2012, 12:45 pm

Chardal isn't really "in between." It is in terms of observance, maybe, but not in terms of hashkafa.

In general, kids raised in Israel won't be "just plain frum" by American standards. There is a sort of "just plain frum" here in a masorti-dati, mostly sephardi way. But ultimately you do have to choose a stance on things like army service, aliyah/yerida, voting, etc. Unlike in America (/europe/whatever), here not choosing a side on those issues is also a choice.

amother

Tue, Aug 28 2012, 1:42 pm

About your questions about RBS- Moriah is usually a non-starter for olim because they don't have any resources for olim and won't take kids who don't speak Hebrew already. They have been getting many Anglos recently but kids who have already been here and speak the language. Rappaport is very supportive of olim and that is why so many English speakers go there. Rappaport is a mamachlati school so their curriculum is divided between kodesh and chol (with some extra Torah hours beyond a regular mamlachti dati school) whereas Moriah is a Talmud Torah and does not emphasize secular studies at all- just does a bare minimum, but is probably stronger in kodesh since that is what they spend most of the day on (like the chareidi schools).

Tamiri

Tue, Aug 28 2012, 2:10 pm

Petach Tikva would probably be a GREAT option. I don't know why it wasn't mentioned before. You really have it all there. Including Ezra, Noam schools, Beit Yaakov schools, all types of head coverings. I grew up there and even back in the day, there was a place for everyone there. It's a city, so you probably won't be getting a private house but in terms of chinuch it's probably got everything and if not, there are cities just a bus ride away. There are Anglos.

amother

Tue, Aug 28 2012, 3:24 pm

OP here. thanks.
amother at 1.42, are you inRBS? if so, do yu feel that chareidi and chardal anglos and isrelis all get along okay, do chareidi and chardal live in the same neigborhoods, same streets, buildings,etc?
also, about moriah, is it a chardal schoool? if so, do some chardal schools hve only very minimal secular studies, I had thought they had more than that?

tamiri thanks for ht info about petach tikva. I should look into it.

Tamiri

Tue, Aug 28 2012, 3:31 pm

I was remembering my childhood there, before Chardal existed. I don't know if "Chareidi" per-se existed either. I'm not sure we used that term back then. We knew what Chassidim were. We know who the Mizrahi people were (Bnai Akiva) and who the more right wingers were (Ezra, Bais Yaakov, Yeshiva Ktana). Some of our friends sent to more right wing schools, I specifically recall a boys school called Sheerit Yisrael. For HS, some of the girls went to Lustig in Tel Aviv rather than the local girls' HS or an ulpana. I would say that these right-wingers were the beginning of Chardal in Petach Tikva. I babysat for people with (horror of horrors) no TV but don't think they spoke out against the medina so maybe they were Chardal rather than Chareidi. There is/was a meat store with a mehudar hashgacha where people whose kids had gone right, bought meat (I assume hordes of others bought there all the time, but in our circles that store was more "right wing"). Today, there seems to be everything in that city. It's not a religious city like Bnai Brak but there is a very strong religious influence, of all flavors. The rabbanut is probably more Chareidi than anything else but employs some token others as well. Being centrally located is a plus, too.

Karnash

Tue, Aug 28 2012, 4:16 pm

Tamiri - you are really bringing back memories for me. I lived in PT from 1973-1985 - When were you there?

amother

Tue, Aug 28 2012, 4:28 pm

amother wrote:

RBS is very mixed like that- DL, Chareidi, Chardal, whatever, but different blocks have different characters, and because it's more of a city than a yishuv it's not like people are davening in the same shuls and sending to the same schools- people go more with their own type.

I think you are getting too caught up on the lingo. If you think Chardal is a solution for you because it's the middle point between chareidi and dati leumi you will be very disappointed. It is a very specific subset of Israeli culture and it precludes an American mentality altogether. I thought "chardal" would be a great way to describe myself before I made aliyah, but once I got here I realized I am not chardal at all but something else.

And like I said, there aren't many "chardal" schools. In RBS I know of one- Moriah. Rappaport describes itself officially as chardal, but practically it's a Right DL rather than an actual blend of Chareidi and Leumi. It is very frum but there just isn't much about it that's chareidi (I believe the two are not mutually exclusive Wink

)

Again, try not to get caught up on the terminology or sticking yourself in a box. Do research, talk to people, visit communities and schools and hopefully you will find a place where you are comfortable and keep an open mind.

amother

Tue, Aug 28 2012, 8:15 pm

You might also consider magen avos in RBS which sounds is more of an american-style out of town BY (they also have a boys school). Also Ramat shilo is a subsection of RBS which is more on the chardal track. I don't live there but we checked out rbs extensively and that is what we consistently heard.

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