CHARDAL - please define, and help to identify such kehillos

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Forum -> Inquiries & Offers -> Israel related Inquiries & Aliyah Questions

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amother

Tue, Aug 28 2012, 9:31 pm

Would chardal be more open minded and honest in terms of talking about the real concerns and emuna issues which our kids and teens have? Or are things just swept under the carpet and questions are not really dealt with? Is this a real difference between chardal and chareidi society?

amother

Wed, Aug 29 2012, 12:33 am

okay OP here,
so now I am feeling 'down' and confused, I have just been reading online that there is a rather high percentage of olim to RBS whose teenagers suffer great confusion and a high number who go off the derech (OTD).
I am so nervous to be considering this move.
anyone have any first hand opinions about htis?
anyone have any more info about ramat shiloh (thank you whomever posted that, I had never heard of it before) and any more info on beit shemesh, sheinfeld area I guess?

Thanks again

amother

Wed, Aug 29 2012, 1:11 am

I am the RBS amother. Ramat shilo has some nice chevras but practically you are not insulated from the rest of RBS, there are other blocks that are comparable.

Re OTD- I would strongly, strongly reiterate Tamiri's point that you get yourself together hashkaficly before you come. The high rate of OTD here comes mostly from parents who change the terms for their kids after they make Aliyah from the way things were in America- usually to make them fit into a chareidi box that they aren't used to or to live with a lot less money than they are used to. There are a lot of relatively new BTs here and their kids aren't always on board. The other problem is parents who think that moving to Israel will solve a lot of the families problems, when moving to Israel is wonderful, it usually doesnt solve anything and only creates problems.

Otoh, families that come for idealistic reasons who have a stable home life, are comfortable in their family's hashkafa (and are a little flexible in either direction) and have some means of supporting themselves usually do just fine (meaning don't have kids any more likely to go OTD then any average stable healthy family in the states.)

amother

Wed, Aug 29 2012, 1:18 am

OP here again.

Thanks again RBS amother. you are truly giving me food for thought.

I am definitely getting the impressionn that kid are having issues often to do with being pushed into israeli charedi lifestyles. honestly though, we would not be doing that. I wonder how confusing it would be for my kids though coming from an OOT school with a majority of working parents, all mixed types, but majority are velvet yarmulkes, to be sent to a school like rapaports.

I am also wondering which are the less chareidi/ more chardal or DL shuls where my dh would feel comfotable.Thanks again

5*Mom

Wed, Aug 29 2012, 1:40 am

I also live in RBS and I think the RBS amother gave you a lot of solid information and advice.

I second the suggestion to look into Ramat Shiloh, and as far as schools, check out Rappaport and also Harel, which is a Mamlachti Dati Torani school that has a broad range of families from Masorati, not completely shomer shabbos (but who want a Torah education for their kids, which is why they send to a Torani school=more hours of Kodesh than a regular mamad) to just-this-side of chareidi. Similar to an OOT school.

Good luck!

fiddle

Wed, Aug 29 2012, 1:57 am

amother wrote:

I am also wondering which are the less chareidi/ more chardal or DL shuls where my dh would feel comfotable.Thanks again

my dh is part of an anglo shul. most send their kids to rappaport. the women all wear wigs, and there are hardly any if not no black hats. the rabbi, is american does not wear a hat or sruga but is not MO or DL, hes just american out of town frum. my husband is the youngest in the shul - they are all in their 30's and 40's, many with high school kids. there are the ones from america that are from long island and others that I do not know, but not teaneck type. many of the others are british. im not sure if this is what you are looking for but there are options.

5*Mom

Wed, Aug 29 2012, 2:25 am

I've been thinking about you still, OP. I think you really need to speak to real live people who could give you more information and more details that are practical, not just theoretical. You should call Miriam Naiman at NBN. She lives in the neighborhood and can answer a lot of your questions about specific areas, shuls and schools, and she can probably also give you names and numbers of real people that you can call and maybe visit.

stillgrowing

Wed, Aug 29 2012, 7:31 am

Besides for the externals, like hair covering, dress, etc..., what are the other practical differences between a school like magen avos and rapaport?

amother

Wed, Aug 29 2012, 9:39 am

OP here.
thanks 5*mom and fiddle for yur help.

fiddle what is the name of the shul that you are talking about?

fiddle

Wed, Aug 29 2012, 10:03 am

amother wrote:

OP here.
thanks 5*mom and fiddle for yur help.

fiddle what is the name of the shul that you are talking about?

Bialle shteibel. But not the bialle shul. there's a chassidic one. This one is located on yaale a street on part of bnei betcha off of dolev in rbsa

5*Mom

Wed, Aug 29 2012, 12:18 pm

stillgrowing wrote:

Besides for the externals, like hair covering, dress, etc..., what are the other practical differences between a school like magen avos and rapaport?

Totally different hashkafot. Although the majority of MA families are Anglo, and Israelis do not consider them "chareidi," the school does consider itself chareidi, and teaches accordingly on matters such as the medina, internet, conformity, learning vs. working, etc. and their goal is for their graduates to continue on to mainstream chareidi high schools/yeshovot ketanot. Rappaport is DL, which means they celebrate Yom Haatzmaut, the boys will likely serve in the army and eventually work, the girls will likely do sheirut leumi, they teach responsible internet use and utilize it in their education, etc.

There are also differences in the general studies curricula as well as the qualifications of their teachers.

Tamiri

Wed, Aug 29 2012, 1:40 pm

Karnash wrote:

Tamiri - you are really bringing back memories for me. I lived in PT from 1973-1985 - When were you there?

When you were. Exactly. Well, almost as we left in 87. But I think you are from "the other side of town" - the Anderson side. At least you can back up my recollections.... I was going to post Mekor Chaim as a Chardali-type shul with Anglos but realized that after 30 years I really don't know the make-up there.

Tamiri

Wed, Aug 29 2012, 1:49 pm

amother wrote:

OP here again.
I am definitely getting the impressionn that kid are having issues often to do with being pushed into israeli charedi lifestyles. honestly though, we would not be doing that. I wonder how confusing it would be for my kids though coming from an OOT school with a majority of working parents, all mixed types, but majority are velvet yarmulkes, to be sent to a school like rapaports.

I'm not so sure it's the Chareidi lifestyle, davka. As I wrote, life here is VERY complicated. It's hot for quite a few months/year. A/c isn't always affordable and it's central in most places, as it is in the U.S. That in itself can make people cranky. If you aren't coming with a ton of money or have a way to make a ton here, the drop in lifestyle (I personally don't feel it but, it's MUCH harder to be comfortable here and not everyone is willing to redefine comfort) can really affect children. As much as you (not you in particular, but general *you) as someone from chu"l may think you are not into the material, when you get here you realize how materialistic life is outside Israel, with little to no effort. Here, you can be the same - if you have money to support your habits. Kids may get a bad feeling about not having, or "being poor". The hours here may be different. Parents can be under tremendous stress for the first 1?2?3? years of life and not be in tune with what is going on with the children. School will be different. And so on and so forth. These factors contribute to children having problems which can lead them to choose to go OTD. But I wouldn't blame Chariedi life in itself. And yes, keeping the kids in an Anglo bubble can cause problems. Not for every child, of course, but my husband and I were scared away from certain cities because of what we had heard of the lack of integration. I thnk that families who come with the goal of integrating - regardless of whether they have Anglo friends or not - will do far better than those who speak out specific neighborhoods for their Anglo ethnicity.

amother

Wed, Aug 29 2012, 3:37 pm

Of course it is nice to be around israelis and feel a part if israelu society but what is so HARMFUL about being in an anglo bubble. With so many anglos dont we in a sense become a subset and a real group to which our children can feel they belong.

amother

Wed, Aug 29 2012, 3:43 pm

I'm only saying this because I hear all this talk abt the dangers of living in an American neighborhood and have never understood the real problem with it.

amother

Wed, Aug 29 2012, 10:39 pm

OP here.
ladies, your responses here are giving me tremendous food for thought. I cannot begin to tell you how truly helpful it is to have this forum, thank you so very much.

Thank you fiddle for the info about the shul where you daven, it sounds like us! funny that it is called the bialle shteeble when it does not sound at all chassidish! I would love to know why it is called that!
Are there other shuls which are less chareidi, etc in RBSA, and what types of people live in ramat shilo - is it more israeli or are there also a lot of anglos there?

oh my, life is so complicated...
For all the RBSA mothers, would you mind telling me what you consider to be a financially viable salary to live in the neighborhood renting or buying, paying tuition for 5 kids age 3 -14 (that's how old they would be when we come iyH) and managing without a car. I am trying to work out if I would have to work or not, my dh is in chinuch which as everyone knows is not the most lucrative profession Smile

Of course, I know it is all relative and depends on so many things, but if anyone could throw some basic figures at me, I would really appreciate it.

amother

Wed, Aug 29 2012, 11:03 pm

OP again:

couple of questions:

IN THE KITCHEN , where are you?! I have explored yuour blog and I really watn to know where you live, perhaps it is a possible option for us!

To amother from Nof Ayalon, could I ask yyu a few questions please.
What are rental prices like?
How much would it be to buy?
Is it appartments or houses or both?
Is it a friendly community?
Are there a lot of young English speakers?

Any more info you can offer?

TIA

amother

Thu, Aug 30 2012, 12:55 am

BUMP
just wondering if any of you nice ladies in artzeinu hakedoshah are up yet and ready to respond, before I take myself to bed!
-OP

fiddle

Thu, Aug 30 2012, 1:15 am

the shul is called that because I think they have ties with the bialle rebbe. it is not chassidic in the least.
there are probably other shuls but most of the anglo ones lean either towards chareidi, baal tshuva, or dl. my husband was looking for years before he found this one. and honestly its like being part of a shul in flatbush.

as far as money wise, depends really. you would need a bigger apartment which can be 4500-5500 shekel a month rent, tuition depends where you send. private will not be cheap, but government schools or partially subsidized schools can be 300-500 shekel a month I think for the older. and for 3-4-5 most schools are subsidized for those ages and its free (new law). you can look for exacts on NBNs website. food depends what and where you shop. a car - honestly I lived with and now without, its difficult especially if you come from having a car. I will buy one when I am able as its very difficult to live here without one (my personal opinion)

Tamiri

Thu, Aug 30 2012, 1:56 am

Your husband is in chinuch? Please, rethink. I am so pro moving here but.... it's very very hard financially and unless he gets a prime job which usually takes lots of pull and experience, you will suffer. Unless you have a very viable vocation. Consider that you will need a bare minimum of 12k nis/month net.

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