CHARDAL - please define, and help to identify such kehillos

Tamiri

Thu, Aug 30 2012, 2:00 am

amother wrote:

I'm only saying this because I hear all this talk abt the dangers of living in an American neighborhood and have never understood the real problem with it.

Here are things which scared me off, personally: People who have funds or family with funds who constantly supply Israeli Olim with things from the alte-heim: Gap clothing, toys etc. I could not give my kids that once we arrived here. They dress like their peers (yes, I miss the shopping in the U.S.) Ditto trips abroad, Pesach with family, Summer camp in the U.S., speaking English as a superior language, not getting with the Israeli culture, etc. Basically materialistic things, I'll admit. It scared me not being able to keep up, and having my children resent that.

amother

Thu, Aug 30 2012, 3:53 am

I am the poster from Nof Ayalon. I just recently moved here, so I can tell you the limited information that I know, and I can give you some contacts who definitely would know more than me.
We live in what is called a revi'ia. It's basically a four family house. Apartment sized, but it's not an apartment building. All of these have 3 bedrooms. Ours happens to be one of the nicer ones, and it has a nice big redone kitchen, a playroom off of the main room, and a humongous mirpeset. We pay 4200 nis a month, but most of them are between 3300-3800. A few are 4000. Most of Nof Ayalon is houses-in the older part, rent is around 5000-for 4 bedroom, decent sized houses. And in the newer part its closer to 6000. There are mamad schools here-a boys school and a girls school. From what I've heard, the schools are ok, nothing to brag about, but not bad. Many people send there kids to other schools. There is also a Talmud TOrah for boys, which people love. There is a girls high school too. The boys high school here is Yeshivat Shaalvim. They have a post high school hesder yeshiva as well (Israelis and Americans).
The community is extremely friendly, and while it seems that there are a lot of Americans, I think it's really only like 20%. It is not hard to get by with no hebrew.
It is also a great location-5 minutes from Modiin, 30 minutes from both Yerushalayim and Tel Aviv. ONe downside it that there is no real public transportation. There are some options-but none are the most convenient.
Hope this helps-feel free to ask more questions...

In the kitchen

Thu, Aug 30 2012, 4:10 am

amother wrote:

OP again:

couple of questions:

IN THE KITCHEN , where are you?! I have explored yuour blog and I really watn to know where you live, perhaps it is a possible option for us!

To amother from Nof Ayalon, could I ask yyu a few questions please.
What are rental prices like?
How much would it be to buy?
Is it appartments or houses or both?
Is it a friendly community?
Are there a lot of young English speakers?

Any more info you can offer?

TIA

Sorry I wasn't on for awhile. I live in *******. about 15-20 minute drive south of Mearas haMachpela.

I haven't updated my blog in awhile Smile

Your lifestyle will dramatically change if you come here and I highly recommend that if you come you make sure to have a car. (Don't bother getting anything fancy, but a second hand Israeli owned car - I see the prices that anglos are selling their cars for and there is a HUGE price gap there). There will be many adjustments and difficulties because you are coming to an entirely different country, having a car will be an incredible convenience, you just shouldn't know from the terrible shlep it is to go by busses everywhere with the kids etc.

English teachers are in demand in our area. But if one of you teaches English the other will have to work in another profession to make ends meet.

Thinking about it more I realized that there are even more women here who speak English quite well. Not sure about the men since I don't really converse with them past "shalom or boker tov" but for sure there are 5 families here speaking English with whom to bond and get help and support from.

When we first moved here (right when we made aliyah) it was very stressful for us because we constantly felt that it was temporary and there must be something better out there. Not to mention family pressure with every conversation telling us that it isn't the place for us and we must move somewhere closer to a chassidishe community. We ended up leaving, going to arad and then to a chassidishe moshav and we realized just how important certain things are to us and how good we have it here. You won't find a perfect place and you will have to make sacrifices, that is just how it goes. Decide what is at the absolute top of your list and work from there.

For us the most important were that everyone in the community be shomer Torah and mitzvos and that it be a loving and supportive community with many different minhagim and lots of ahavas yisroel to teach our children that there are many ways to serve Hashem. It is a big bracha in my opinion to live in a community of all yidden. It was a shock to me to move from here to Arad, where I ended up living in a building with Arabs and non-Jewish Russians. There is even a Russian grocery store there that very blazenly displays giant pictures of a butcher chopping up pork on its front windows and shopping with Arabs pushing me around in the checkout it...I realized just how good it was to live here.

Etc etc, anyhow, I could go on for a long time. We have learned a tremendous amount about ourselves in the past 2 and a half years since making aliyah and have made some incredible changes both that we are happy with and sacrifices we weren't ready to make but had no choice. Overall when we look at the big picture we remind ourselves and thank Hashem daily that we are lucky to live in Eretz Yisroel.

*edited to remove name of place, if you didn't see it while it was there please pm me. This thread is completely public.

Last edited by In the kitchen on Thu, Aug 30 2012, 4:56 pm; edited 2 times in total

iloveisrael

Thu, Aug 30 2012, 2:53 pm

Hi, I moved to Israel 3 year ago and have lived in Rbs-a. Honestly, chardal is basically DL and Charedi mixed, when I lived in Canada I was considered Charedi and here I'm DL, I dont like labels, I'm a Practicing Jew. My husband wears a knitted kippa and my sons prefer velvet and they go to a DL school where it's seperate from 1st grade. Some women cover all their hair and some none, but as long as there s a mutual respect for everyone it's all good. Charedi here is much more extreme then in north America. Good luck with your desisions. Regarding moriah , I have friends who send their kids and it's very high in academics, so children who do not know Hebrew it will be very hard. And again it's a mixed crowd that gOes there

amother

Thu, Aug 30 2012, 7:34 pm

OP here.
Thanks inthe kitchen, tamiri, iloveisrael, shuly, nof ayalon amother and aanyone else who I missed out. you are giving me seruous food for thought. yes, my dh realiezes that the best job he may get at first will be teaching english. anyone know how that pays?

nof ayalon amother, I amso happy you like it there. is the kehilla a mixture of chareidi, chardal and dl? does each group have separate shuls? also, is the Talmud Torah that you mentioned a chareidi or dl school? do they learn any secular studies. do you have any ideas of house prices?

in the kitchen, thanks for the info. do yu feel safe where you are, is there a good security system in place?

thanks again everyone

anyone hav e any info on rechovot for me? the only info I have is from nbn adn I would love to hear more.

I also have not found any info on petach tikva, there is not much about it at all on nbn, I wonder why?

shalhevet

Fri, Aug 31 2012, 1:53 am

amother wrote:

I'm only saying this because I hear all this talk abt the dangers of living in an American neighborhood and have never understood the real problem with it.

This is my opinion FWIW: There are people who are bringing up their children here in a quasi-American culture - they speak English, push that their children's English will be at least as good as, if not better than, their Hebrew, laud American culture/products/lifestyle and kvetch about the Israeli ones, and bring their children up with American hashkafas which do not fit in here.

Historically, when people moved to another country they always did their best that their children would have a better life, even if they themselves were new immigrants - by learning the language, fitting in with the culture etc. - even often to the point of assimilation Jewishly (but that's another story).

What the Anglo-push-Anglo-culture parents are doing is making their children new immigrants all over again. Their Hebrew language skills will not be up to par for high-level jobs, since they were made to read in English. Their attitudes and lifestyle will be more American than Israeli, making it hard for them, too, to fit in in that large part of Israel outside of RBS and a couple of other places. It will be hard for them to fit in to schools/yeshivas etc. since they don't really identify with any Israeli group. A couple of schools in RBS are not the answer, because it is only a temporary solution till they hit the real Israeli education system.

Not only that, but should these children decide to move to America, they will discover that they absorbed enough of Israeli culture that they don't really fit in there too.

IMHO it doesn't really help that there are another few thousand families in the same boat. There's a big country out there, most of which is not like this.

amother

Fri, Aug 31 2012, 2:39 am

Nof Ayalon amother here-
I am not positive about housing prices, but I think it varies between 400-500K (dollars), there are all different sized houses. It is not cheap, but any place that is in a great location, not over the green line, and has some sort of significant Anglo presence is not going to be cheap.

The talmud torah I would say is chardal. I'm not 100% sure how to differentiate all the different titles, there are no rules. But it is a right wing school-just not chareidi.They learn secular subjects, not sure on what level though. They definitely learn science and math starting from first grade.It is Zilberman style so they focus a lot on Tanach. They also have a sort of mandatory shiur on shabbos for the kids that live local. Nof Ayalon is somewhat unique I think because it is kind of affiliated with Shaalvim. Shaalvim is a chardal kibbutz and yeshiva/kollel community (I lived in the kollel community for 6 years), which was founded by Agudah. So even with the hesder program and all the kippot srugot-it is pretty right wing. I can give specific examples if you want. A lot of the teachers in the Talmud Torah are Shaalvim alumni, or current kollel members/students.

The community is strongly chardal. There are a handful of people who are more chareidi I guess. I am not exactly sure hw to define them. They wear black hats. There are a few chabad, one or two chassidish. I'm sorry, I just really don't know how to define all of these groups. Also Israelis and anglos have different mentalities, and are coming from different cultures, so it's hard to define. We have a nice mix, and everyone is accepted for who they are.

There are two parts of Nof Ayalon-Shlav Aleph and Shlav Bet. Each part has a Sefardi shul, Ashkenazi shul, and a Beit Kneset Meuchad-which is some sort of mixture of different nusachs. I'm not sure how popular that one is, or what the deal with that is. Generally, I think on shabbos the sefardim go to the sfardi shul and ashkenzi go there-simply because it's the nusach they daven. During the week each shul has minyanim at different times so I guess the men go to whichever one fits their schedule-at least thats what my husband does. Sorry, I don't know that much about the shul- I just moved here three weeks ago. Though we moved from Shaalvim-so I'm kind of familiar with the area.

amother

Fri, Aug 31 2012, 4:52 am

shalhevet wrote:

amother wrote:

I'm only saying this because I hear all this talk abt the dangers of living in an American neighborhood and have never understood the real problem with it.

RBS amother here. A word in defense, if I may.

Maybe not if there are a few thousand families... but let's say there are a few hundred thousand families? If Americans retain some aspect of their former culture and identity it will make it much more palatable for other Americans to take the plunge for aliyah, and isn't the ultimate goal to get as many Jews to Israel as possible?

Furthermore, Israeli culture, whether it is chareidi or DL or chiloni is not the ultimate Jewish future. To me kibbutz galiyot is about Jews gathering back in Eretz Yisrael, each with something of their own to contribute. Israel can learn a lot from American Jews, and I don't think American Jews should be shy to help shape the country based on their own mentality and experiences.

It may be hard for some children, but most kids pick up the language easily enough and if they are smart they will be able to navigate between the two worlds. If your child has a learning issue, even a tiny one, then it will certainly be magnified here and that is a major consideration before. My dh works in a very Israeli environment where his English and American mentality is valued, and while sometimes it is culturally isolating there are enough people just like him (not just a handful) that it's ok. It's not simple to do it this way, but it's not impossible.

I don't think "just be Israeli" is the necessarily the right way anymore.

amother

Fri, Aug 31 2012, 12:34 pm

hi again everyone, this is OP. I am continuing to benefit tremendously from all of your insight,s, I truly appreciate your comments.

nof ayalon amother, I am wondering if your community is out of our range financially Sad

apart from that, it sounds like a wonderful place to be. I will not discount it yet.

tamiri, my dh has a BA and a post grad education degree, also a special education certiificate and training. he has about 15 years experience in teaching kodesh, special ed and a high level of one specific general studies syllabus, mostly in jewish schools, chareidi and not chareidi schools.. I do not want to give any more info bec I am afraid that some people iwll work out who we are.
he is very hardworking, already works more than a full schedule and tutors too. I just need ot know if we can make ends meet on that. does anyone know what kinds of salary is available for a teacher or rebbi?
I know that it is probable htat I will have to work at some point, but I have no qualifications and my main work experience is in childcare , which is the kind of job that a lot of people will be looking for, thus lessening my chances of securing work, in what is a very poorly paid field anyway Sad

.

thanks again, I guess I will not be recievng a reply from the israel imamothers until after shabbos now.
have a good shabbos

amother

Fri, Aug 31 2012, 4:26 pm

in our research on rechovot, we discovered that because it is not such a popular aliyah destination for families, the level of support offered by the schools is not great. You probably want to take a close look at Noam (for boys and girls) it's the Torani school and seems to have a good reputation. We never looked into this school specifically because we were looking at the chareidi options. There is also Etz Chaim Cheder (boys only) which is under a chareidi hanhala but seems to be more open-minded than the typical Israeli cheder. They offer more limudei chol and there were definitely some kipot srugot along with the velvet yarmulkes. Have you checked out the chatam website? I think its chatam.org. its the american yeshivish shul in Rechovot that has a nice mix of different types of people (including your husband's type, it's really quite diverse). we spent a shabbos there and were very impressed with the people and the Rav.

Tamiri

Sat, Sep 01 2012, 1:46 pm

amother wrote:

t yet.

tamiri, my dh has a BA and a post grad education degree, also a special education certiificate and training. he has about 15 years experience in teaching kodesh, special ed and a high level of one specific general studies syllabus, mostly in jewish schools, chareidi and not chareidi schools.. I do not want to give any more info bec I am afraid that some people iwll work out who we are.
he is very hardworking, already works more than a full schedule and tutors too. I just need ot know if we can make ends meet on that. does anyone know what kinds of salary is available for a teacher or rebbi?
I know that it is probable htat I will have to work at some point, but I have no qualifications and my main work experience is in childcare , which is the kind of job that a lot of people will be looking for, thus lessening my chances of securing work, in what is a very poorly paid field anyway Sad

.

thanks again, I guess I will not be recievng a reply from the israel imamothers until after shabbos now.
have a good shabbos

This is good news. Having a degree is important when looking for a job with misrad hachinuch, assuming he'll not only be looking in the private sector. My father taught in Israel. Always 2 jobs, plus private lessons and he taught in University during the summer to supplement. My mother also worked and thus, we got by. I think that if your husband is a hard worker AND he can find a job AND you come with some seed money for the beginning, you can make it work but you have to be prepared for it to take a while. My father tried things other than teaching before he took a job here. It was not easy, to say the least.

Ilovehisboys

Sat, Sep 01 2012, 5:06 pm

I'm jumping on the band wagon here...

Please, please seriously consider Aliyah before doing anything rash. A few points to think about (most have already been addressed, but I think them important enough to rehash):

Aliyah is HARD. A couple really needs to be "on the same page" if they expect to work out all of the situations that come along with picking yourself up and moving across the world. It's hard for parents, it's hard for kids.

Do you have any family in Israel? Any close friends that you can rely on? Consider moving to the community that they live in to start. Setting up a home is hard here--all of the nuances of setting up a home, plus the added difficulty of the language. Unless you or your husband is a fluent Hebrew speaker, you may want some help to choose phone and internet plans, and help set up your gas, electric, water, arnona, etc. You should also consider moving into a furnished rented apartment before your lift comes with all of your belongings. That will give you time to get to know your community, and to look at apartments rather than taking something sight, unseen.

Are your kids happy in their current schools? 14 is really pushing the limit of when you should move kids to Israel. I know of quite a few families who moved back to the States (or should have!) because their kids were not successful here. If your oldest were 5, maybe there's less to take into account, but with older kids, you really need to address their emotional needs.

Do you really think that making Aliyah will "fix" things? "Chardal" is a nice phrase and a nice ideology. On paper, it appears to be the happy medium that you are looking for. But please trust the other posters that have already told you that it is really primarily Israeli. Americans tend to have a difficult time fitting into any box. Especially those of us that are from OOT. We didn't like being put in boxes in America, and we like it even less here. If you and your husband are struggling to be on the same page, the struggle will be more intense here, not less. I'm sorry for that brutal honesty. I know of too many couples that divorced within 2 years of making Aliyah, because it was not the solution that they had hoped for. (And if uprooting your children isn't damaging enough, try uprooting them and then removing their family structure. That's a recipe for disaster.)

Do you have financial support? Please don't consider making Aliyah unless at least one of you have a job waiting. It's unrealistic to think that you can come here and a well-paying job will fall into your lap immediately. I know people that went many, many months before finding permanent work. And I know people that considered jobs that were completely ridiculous for them (unloading shipments in a shoe store, assistant chef, fundraiser) simply because they had no other means of putting food on their table. Decent paying chinuch jobs, especially for somebody who isn't fluent in Hebrew, are very hard to come by.

Please forgive me for being so harsh. I have lived, and continue living with many of these challenges. Of course, all of this is from H-shem. But I believe that each of these considerations will be your hishtadlus in contributing to a smooth klita. I strongly encourage you to speak with a Rav (without your husband, if necessary) and a therapist (preferably with your husband) before making this huge decision.