My son has gender disorder....

amother

Wed, Feb 06 2013, 4:29 pm

I WISH my boys would be a bit more girly!!!! Twisted Evil

GAMZu

Wed, Feb 06 2013, 9:06 pm

HindaRochel wrote:

You don't realize there are men who pretend they are women for years? It is a kick to them. Number of posts mean nothing.

Is that a play on the thread topic? Tongue Out

bnm

Wed, Feb 06 2013, 10:28 pm

and if the boy likes pink and dolls? we used to play ching chong with my brother (chinese jump rope) he held a end of the rope and 1 day decided he wants to play too. he was an = player, now he is married with 2 kids of his own.

Dolly Welsh

Wed, Feb 06 2013, 10:40 pm

Kids, I said those remarks were ONLY meant for THIS particular situation, NOT everybody's situation. I said that twice.

As for the cooties.

I am not in favor of dragging boys into strongly defined female environments such as wig and manicure parlors. I am not saying it is the complete end of the world, but I do not favor it. The word cooties was used with insider humor.

It does indeed support good masculine identity to let the little fellow have kavod. Just because he is small and doesn't have his muscles yet and doesn't scare anybody doesn't mean he shouldn't have the kavod due to a man. Especially if he is giving his mom concerns as OP describes.

It never hurts to give anybody kavod.

A girl asked to help her mom do mom things is being a proud colleague.

Her brother is never going to be a mom.

If her brother is asked to help mom do mom things, it can't logically be as a proud colleague, right?

So, what's left? He is just being convenient. And his gender is being ignored because it isn't relevant to the situation, in the way his sister's gender is. Well, nothing about him should be ignored. What you don't acknowledge you are sort of making disappear: it isn't being affirmed by you, at least not at that moment.

Obviously, little boys will proudly - gallantly! as considerate, loyal, well bred little gentlemen and loving sons! - help their moms plenty. But it is not going to be as much as their sisters do, not for quite the same things, and not in the same spirit.

Now it is necessary to state that of course men help with their kids. Obviously. But they aren't mom.
Obviously.

"Obviously" is a hard word to type, but I am getting better at it, because of having so much practice here.

It never hurts to defend anybody from their older brothers; although OP did not say that was an issue, but I wondered if it might be.

So my suggestions apply to a boy who seems to be having gender difficulties - not any and all boys who are doing fine as they are. Can you absorb that? OK? Got that?

Many of the posts above were reassuring. Some were less so.

GAMZu

Wed, Feb 06 2013, 11:51 pm

Quote:

Now it is necessary to state that of course men help with their kids. Obviously. But they aren't mom.
Obviously.

So they won't push a baby out. I think it's obvious. Obviously. Genitals aren't involved in diaper changed. Well, at least the parents' genitals are not.

Quote:

A girl asked to help her mom do mom things is being a proud colleague.

Her brother is never going to be a mom.

If her brother is asked to help mom do mom things, it can't logically be as a proud colleague, right?

So, what's left? He is just being convenient. And his gender is being ignored because it isn't relevant to the situation, in the way his sister's gender is.

!!!
WTH

Last edited by GAMZu on Thu, Feb 07 2013, 8:37 am; edited 1 time in total

Dolly Welsh

Thu, Feb 07 2013, 12:33 am

GAMZu you are asserting that there are just Parents, not moms or pops.

I used to get spam mail addressed to "Dear Occupant" whoever or whatever you are. Is it like that?

How would we sing "Hello Mudda, Hello Fadda"?

How is a kid supposed to wake up in the night and yell "Paaaaaarennttttt!"

It's two syllables. Will never catch on.

Merrymom

Thu, Feb 07 2013, 12:41 am

My son took all the elastic hairbands yesterday and turned them all into necklaces, then he took all the girly ponytails and made them into bracelets going up to his elbows. Then he was begging to watch a Bratz movie that he happened to glance at online ( I convinced him to watch zebras on youtube instead) . I think every little boy (and even most men) have both masculine and feminine qualities to them. I don't think we need to make a big deal out of them. In fact I wonder if there would be fewer gay men in this world if there weren't so many who had to deal with years of teasing and being called gay, when all they really were, were more creative artsy types.

Dolly Welsh

Thu, Feb 07 2013, 1:09 am

Yes. Art was once for all educated men. Well, maybe non-Jewish men.

At one time, all men were taught to draw competently, meaning realistically. It was a skill which had military uses, and was also part of being a normal, thinking, improved person.

The present day notion that an interest in esthetics is feminine, or effeminate, is complete nonsense and ahistorical. It is only about a hundred years old.

So I agree with your post.

HindaRochel

Thu, Feb 07 2013, 1:37 am

Merrymom wrote:

Less that the I think there would be fewer people with gender-identity confusion (which is different, as there are as there are both hetero/homosexual trans) I'm not stating no one would be trans, but fewer yes, I think so. Some still will remain uncomfortable with their body parts regardless of how they are allowed to act/dress etc. and will still seek reassignment.

HindaRochel

Thu, Feb 07 2013, 1:40 am

GAMZu wrote:

HindaRochel wrote:

You don't realize there are men who pretend they are women for years? It is a kick to them. Number of posts mean nothing.

Is that a play on the thread topic? Tongue Out

GAMZu

Thu, Feb 07 2013, 8:43 am

Dolly Welsh wrote:

(1) "Mommy" and "Daddy" are two syllables.
(2) I guess in your alternate universe where the mother and the father have very distinct jobs and one is forbidden from doing the jobs of the other, a child can't be expected to remember which parent deals with nightmares and which one deals with bed-wetting. So he'll have to call out, "Paaaareeeeent!!!" and have them both come and decide whose official job it is to take care of that specific issue.
(3) Goodness, I pity kids from single-parent households. They will never get half their needs taken care of. If the kid has only a father, they will stay in their dirty diapers until their flesh rots. But it won't be too painful because death from starvation will probably come before flesh rot.

theoneandonly

Thu, Feb 07 2013, 9:07 am

Dolly Welsh wrote:

My son actually wakes up in middle of the night and cries for "Daaaddy!!!" What does that say about our parenting roles? Rolling Eyes

anon for this

Thu, Feb 07 2013, 9:08 am

Dolly Welsh wrote:

How is a kid supposed to wake up in the night and yell "Paaaaaarennttttt!"

It's two syllables. Will never catch on.

I don't think this is a problem for my children; when in a whiny mood, they've been known to stretch "Mom" into 4 or 5 syllables.

HindaRochel

Thu, Feb 07 2013, 9:15 am

theoneandonly wrote:

Dolly Welsh wrote:

My son actually wakes up in middle of the night and cries for "Daaaddy!!!" What does that say about our parenting roles? Rolling Eyes

I'm sorry, this is obviously not acceptable behavior. Extreme forms of reorientation of proper parental roles is called for. Marry Clarissa. Or Gamzu.

Barbara

Thu, Feb 07 2013, 9:45 am

Dolly Welsh wrote:

You are addressing a worldwide audience here, not your coffee klatch. Trolls write "inside jokes." Legitimate posters write for the broad audience. Decide which you would like to be.

Boys have accompanied their mothers on errands for time immemorial. They play or read or nap. They certainly don't get "cooties," or develop gender identity issues. On the flip side, my father used to make me accompany him to purchase work boots and tools. Did you know that Sears offered a lifetime guarantee, if the tool breaks, they would replace it. Do you know how much I came to hate the Sears tool department? Do you know I never, ever, saw another little girl there? Yet I'm straight, and cootie-free.

Dolly Welsh wrote:

It does indeed support good masculine identity to let the little fellow have kavod. Just because he is small and doesn't have his muscles yet and doesn't scare anybody doesn't mean he shouldn't have the kavod due to a man. Especially if he is giving his mom concerns as OP describes.

It never hurts to give anybody kavod.

Everyone deserves respect. Giving the type of deference that you suggest to a 6 year-old simply because he has a p3nis is idiotic. MEN AND WOMEN ARE EQUALLY DESERVING OF RESPECT. Period. Full stop.

And they are deserving of our respect whether they prefer boy or girl toys as a child. You seem to only want to respect the child if he toes the line that you would like him to toe. Once he steps outside that boundary, all bets are off.

Dolly Welsh wrote:

I can only think of a couple of gender-specific things that women do -- bear children, and menstruate. Unless Mom is teaching him how to insert a tampon, then your comments are ridiculous.

Men cook. Men clean. Men care for their children. Men shop. Men nurture.

Oh, and by the way. Many (male) bikers and swimmers shave their legs. Indeed, hair removal is becoming increasingly popular amongst men. A generation ago, any man who waxed his chest would be considered odd. Now its common. See a 2009 article on manscaping: http://abcnews.go.com/Health/G.....93977 So that little boy who pretended to shave his legs may soon be in the mainstream.

Dolly Welsh wrote:

So, what's left? He is just being convenient. And his gender is being ignored because it isn't relevant to the situation, in the way his sister's gender is. Well, nothing about him should be ignored. What you don't acknowledge you are sort of making disappear: it isn't being affirmed by you, at least not at that moment.

First, you do know that you completely fabricated the whole thing about the sister. The child is 6. He has a baby sister, as well as several older brothers. He has preferred more stereotypically female toys since he could talk -- well before his sister was born, and notwithstanding the fact that, until that point, his home was a "boy house" -- filled with boys and stereotypically boy toys.

And you are dead wrong that what you don't encourage, you make disappear. By forcing a child to abandon the things that interest him, you are teaching him that his interests are ugly and dirty. That they need to be hidden. That mommy won't love him if he isn't the way she wants him to be. That is a formula for depression and teen suicide.

Dolly Welsh wrote:

Obviously, little boys will proudly - gallantly! as considerate, loyal, well bred little gentlemen and loving sons! - help their moms plenty. But it is not going to be as much as their sisters do, not for quite the same things, and not in the same spirit.

So, pray tell, how will they help mom? By demanding that she defer to them, as you suggest, and proudly showing her their p3nises?

Dolly Welsh wrote:

Now it is necessary to state that of course men help with their kids. Obviously. But they aren't mom.
Obviously.

"Obviously" is a hard word to type, but I am getting better at it, because of having so much practice here.

One thing I was taught as a young attorney was to never say that something is "obvious." If it is, then everyone will know it. If you have to point it out, its because its not obvious, and is probably wrong.

That fits here. A father isn't a mother because they have different body parts. He cannot bear the child, and cannot nurse. That's it.

Dolly Welsh wrote:

It never hurts to defend anybody from their older brothers; although OP did not say that was an issue, but I wondered if it might be.

So my suggestions apply to a boy who seems to be having gender difficulties - not any and all boys who are doing fine as they are. Can you absorb that? OK? Got that?

Many of the posts above were reassuring. Some were less so.

Yeah, well, you made most of it up, from the mother demanding that the boy help her with errands, to her taking him to a nail salon, to "at long last" having a girl, so why not make that up as well.

Your advice is wrong-headed and dangerous. Children need to experiment with gender stereotypes and gender roles before finding out who "they" are. And the vast majority of them, given that chance, will find themselves, and grow up happy and healthy. It is those who are stifled who are most at risk for having issues.

anon for this

Thu, Feb 07 2013, 10:06 am

OP: When my son was 3, he didn't play with dolls but loved to "baby" his stuffed animals: he played with them, put them to bed, and "nursed" them. He also liked to try on my shoes. He's a teenager now, and no longer interested in any of these activities. In his spare time, he now likes to exercise and play sports.

Personally, I try to assign chores to my children based on their ability and temperament, not their gender. So my daughter usually helps me shovel or rake leaves, while her older brother helps put away toys.

sequoia

Thu, Feb 07 2013, 12:22 pm

My cousin is a very hands-on father and his three boys are constantly screaming for daddy. It all depends on who is more naturally nurturing.

Barbara

Thu, Feb 07 2013, 12:31 pm

sequoia wrote:

My cousin is a very hands-on father and his three boys are constantly screaming for daddy. It all depends on who is more naturally nurturing.

IME kids in two-parent homes naturally go through stages in which they want one parent or the other.

Dolly Welsh

Thu, Feb 07 2013, 12:43 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

You had a baby girl "at last" so being a girl is a high value thing in your house.

Don't venerate or over-princess your daughter in his presence. Out of it, sure.

Have his father spend real, good, quality time with him, just him alone. He needs to feel he is in the boys' club in his house, that he has a solid membership in it, with his father's explicit backing.

Watch out that his brothers are not excluding him from the boys' club.

Do NOT ask him to help you with the baby, fetch something for her care from across the room, carry stuff for you, or in any way ask for little helps and favors that you would not ask from the toughest of your other sons, or anybody's sons, or a rabbi. In fact, be extra careful with this one. Those little sweet help requests are not appropriate with boys, especially this one. All flames about this will be ignored. You must treat him like a superior, in one sense. Not like a servant. Your daughter will help you shlep and prep. Not your sons. Repeat, all flames will be ignored.

Do NOT take him, or any son, with you into a wig salon or manicure salon, or other cooties-laden places. I don't care if that creates babysitting problems for you and you look a mess.

In fact, look a mess a little. This remark is just for this household. Being female, in this house, should just be a fact of normal life, DEFINITELY NOT a ticket to stardom, glossy gorgeousness, and high value royal rank.

Any human being would obviously want whatever is prestigious and high value, the path to royal status.

Particularly if he feels like the low man on totem pole among the males.

He must have his rank raised in your house. He needs to be given special attention by your husband, in that way.

His brothers must not make him a little nothing servant boy who shleps the bags. If they do that, and you are petting the girl, well, sure, who wouldn't want to go over to the girls' side. It becomes all that's left for him to do.

Re read the Joseph story. He ended up a great Tzaddik.

This post of mine got six "likes". I hope it helped OP.

It addresses the OP's specific, anguished, situation. Generalizations about gender identity philosophy, based on how happy everybody else is with their fine, adjusted children, is OT and thread-jacking. The OP is a specific person with a child she is in tears about. So she's not having as good a time as you are. Whatever you think about wishing your sons were more girlie, she isn't thinking that about this particular child. She sees him every day, you don't, and you are not likely to change her views about this particular child. You have expelled her from your club and told her to straighten out and adjust her silly gender prejudices. Is that nice?

And it wasn't just one of you. It went on for pages, the forgotten OP sniffling in a corner.

My wing is no righter than anybody's.

I am old, and late life BT, and have nothing to learn from you about all these issues.

Yes, I have specific life successes to point to, to prove that I know what I am talking about, but that's too personal to share on the internet.

PS I bet you don't wish your husbands were more girlie. You probably draw the line there.

GAMZu

Thu, Feb 07 2013, 12:58 pm

Quote:

Giving the type of deference that you suggest to a 6 year-old simply because he has a p3nis is idiotic.

Quote:

Unless Mom is teaching him how to insert a tampon, then your comments are ridiculous.

Barbara, will you marry me?