feeling the pain of tisha b'av- I think we have it backwards

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Feeling the pain of tisha b'av- I think we have it backwards

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Tweedledee

Sat, Jul 13 2013, 11:44 pm

for years I have felt a vague sense of guilt for not really feeling it on tisha bav. I feel it a little but I certainly cant immerse myself in greif for the whole day. I squeezed out a tear once in my life. I went to a bunch of shiurim and read the books that were supposed to make me realize the immensity of the loss and while my heart constricted a little I never really got there.
but I think now its a problem of our generation, not that we dont feel the tragedy of the churban, but that we are in a society that is very very uncomfortable with sadness, tears and public tears especially. if you ever do see someone crying on tisha bav which is more rare than not these days, they are trying desperately to keep it quiet.

from the time we are little we are told dont cry. when we do cry everyone is is a rush to distract us. we get squeemish when we see someone else crying. until we reach a point, as I have where as soon as any feelings of sadness begin to surface my mind autimatically erects a wall. often my mind immediately replaces the sadness with another emotion, usually anger, sometimes fear. the times when I have cried in my life, really cried hard have all been situations of frustration or despair, but never just sadness, or empathy.

from others I realized even if one is moved to tears, they keep it breif. for our generation raised in a dont worry be happy society, not only is being commanded to immerse yourself in greif for a whole, day to literaly cry, as much as you can, it is not only awkward, but even for those like myself who want to be able to, we dont know how. its like being commanded to speak a foreign language on command.

I think we need to shift the focus from trying to feel the loss of the churban to learning to feel period. we have allbeen through things, some an actual loss, other have been though other greif inducing life situations, most of us have never truley fully greived. most of us bury, some if not all of our greif without realizing it. me personally, in self searching I realized all my sadness has only ever been felt as anger and resentment. I dont even know how to JUST be sad let alone be sad for the churban for a whole day, to the point of crying.

and once a person even reaches that point, learning to be comfortable with the concepts and actual acting out of communal crying and public greiving is a huge obsticle as we are so conditioned against crying in public or in front of everyone but our nearest and dearest.

I want to learn how to greif. yirmiyahu tells bnei yisrael to teach their daughters to cry. I think we need to take that literaly. I wuld want to start now in preparation for next year tisha bav, as I imagine this would take a lot of work. first learning to be in touch with my own sadness, learning to truely feel said for others (as opposed to just indignant on their behalf) learn to just feel it, cry it out, learn to do the same for a pain that is not uniquely mine, then to do so in the company of thers, all of us together overcoming our inhibitions to just be in the experience together. I think if we could do that, it would be far simoler to transfer that emotional awareness to the pain of the churban.

issue is, how do I start. I dont know how to do it alone, dont have anyone to teach me. should we arrange a random group of women to experiment in crying together, or learning to feel, if we did would anyone show up consistantly or chicken out, I dont know. but I really really think this is the key not only to a meaningful tish bav but meaningful yamim neoraim, meaningful teffilos, alot of places in jewish life where I have felt disconnected.

Emotional

Sun, Jul 14 2013, 12:09 am

Excellent point.
I remember some years back I actually went to the library and took out some Holocaust books to read over Tisha B'av.My husband saw that it moved me to tears and asked me to please read something else, he was getting too squeamish watching me cry.
As mothers with children it is extremely hard to stay focused on the mood of the day, like on yom kippur. That further compounds the matter. We can't dissolve in tears lest we scare our kids. It's hard to find a balance.
I like your idea.

Tweedledee

Sun, Jul 14 2013, 12:48 am

I have a different problem than not feeling free to cry. it just doesnt happen. when I read holocaust books I dont cry. first I get furious. which if it goes on long enough leads me to question my faith hashem and everything. there is no part of me that seems able to accept it and just feel it. I just get angrier and angrier. and the second thing I feel is terror. when I read these things, I always read them imagining myself as the protagonist rather than from an observer standpoint. I think, Hashem let this happen once, he can let it happen again. this could be me next time. I find it very difficult to divorce myself from the story and not internalize it. so at the end of the day im a roiling mess of fury and fear but I havnt cried or grieved a bit. I think it may be an internal defense mechanism, but im sure im not the only one. im sure even people who can cry, feel obligated to reign it in. and even those who do feel it cant keep the feeling up for 26 hours.

in the old days they didnt have shiurim all day on tisha bav. the would literaly stay in shul and cry most of the day. even the most emotional among us nowadays probaly couldnt stay connected that long. I think its something we need to actually relearn from scratch.

oliveoil

Sun, Jul 14 2013, 12:58 am

I'm not sure this problem is as widespread as you seem to think. Most people I know certainly know how to be sad and grieve when relevant and appropriate.

Tweedledee

Sun, Jul 14 2013, 1:06 am

not me. when my husband was sitting shivah for his sister, one brother was vomiting for two days but wouldnt cry. two others were making jokes at each other, not letting each other focus of mourning much, one sister kept a stiff upper lip and said thats how her mother had raised her. only one sister seemed to really be greiving fully and using shivah as it was meant to be.my husband cried once, when they put up the matzeivah and even that was just sniffle sniffle, gimme a tissue, ok im done type.
in sleepaway camp when I was a kid we had really intense tisha bav programs as camp programs tended to be. and handful, maybe ten or twelve teenagers cried. and not only did others not, but some other staff were flabbergasted. one staff member who had come from belgium said she'd never seen anyone actually crying on tisha bav before. it clearly unnerved her.
whenever a sad subject comes up for conversation most people I know will tsk tsk and then quickly change the subject. no one wants to actually talk about it, feel it. the instinct is to move on as fast as you can.

while most people I know can cry more easily and normally than me, there is a instinct to hurry it up, pull youself together, do something to get your mind off it. thell sniffle a little and then get back to bussiness. there is definitely a conditioned aversion to it.

seeker

Sun, Jul 14 2013, 1:14 am

oliveoil wrote:

I'm not sure this problem is as widespread as you seem to think. Most people I know certainly know how to be sad and grieve when relevant and appropriate.

I think a lot of people are not comfortable with their own emotions and it creates all kinds of different problems. But it's hard to survey this kind of thing to find out how prevalent it is.

Tweedledee

Sun, Jul 14 2013, 1:27 am

seeker wrote:

oliveoil wrote:

I'm not sure this problem is as widespread as you seem to think. Most people I know certainly know how to be sad and grieve when relevant and appropriate.

I think a lot of people are not comfortable with their own emotions and it creates all kinds of different problems. But it's hard to survey this kind of thing to find out how prevalent it is.

well it certainly isnt unanimous, but im sure im ot the only one who has found it hard to emotionally connect with sadness over the churban on tisha bav or sadness over aveiros on yom kippur. my best friend is going through a terrible tzar right now, and it frustrates me to no end that I have never been able to cry when I davened for her, or even when I talked to her about hwat shes going through. im sure this isnt unusual in todays environment where we are expected to be happy happy happy all the time.

Emotional

Sun, Jul 14 2013, 1:44 am

I wonder if this is a generational thing?
Or perhaps a cultural thing?
See nowadays in America it's not acceptable to wear your emotions like a billboard. A person is expected to have some self-control and dignity.
I'm not saying that's good or bad, I'm just saying that's our culture.
On Tisha Bav though, we're supposed to be sad, or at least subdued.

Emotional

Sun, Jul 14 2013, 1:51 am

I think another aspect is that we're numb from all the tzaros. Everyone I know is dealing with something. Everyone, without exception. Some with one big tzara, some with several, some cope better than others, but to varying degrees life is hard. And people are ashamed to admit that. They're nervous watching another person break down because it awakens their own sadness.
I used to cry much more easily, some years back. After watching my various family members suffer in one way or another, I have numbed my emotions as a defense mechanism. To my family I often appear aloof and uncaring. Quite the opposite. I care so much that if I hear one more detail of this or that situation I will lose my mind.

fromthedepths

Sun, Jul 14 2013, 2:45 am

I think it's very true. And some people are actually doing something about it. Miriam Maslin, for example. She runs grieving workshops in Israel. Mishpacha's Family First interviewed her last year. She used to have a website, but I don't think it's up any more. She also works with people over the phone. I have her contact info if anyone's interested.

Also Inner Torah, by Miriam Millhauser Castle, includes grieving. www.innertorah.com

FranticFrummie

Sun, Jul 14 2013, 4:11 am

When I first became frum, I remember the Yom Kippur I cried my heart out over all the things I'd done in my secular life. Everyone in shul looked at me like I'd grown a second head! I wasn't wailing or anything like that, but I didn't try to hide my tears either. I was just so overwhelmed with the enormity of it all, and so wanting the forgiveness that I didn't feel I deserved.

I felt sorry for the people who just stood there looking at the clock, with blank faces. They didn't seem to feel anything except boredom.

bamamama

Sun, Jul 14 2013, 4:34 am

FranticFrummie wrote:

The rabbi of the shul I davened at when I was single used to sob his way through YK davening. It's was tremendously moving.

thankyou

Sun, Jul 14 2013, 5:19 am

When I was younger (a teen, older teen) I used to sort of look at myself from the outside when I'd cry (which was rarely) and realized every time that I can only cry for abour 5 seconds then I stop. I remember wondering if part of the reason I stopped so quickly was because I was so aware of myself while crying.
Then after giving birth to my first, I learned how cry. The first few days after the birth (a very traumatic one) I cried a lot but kept trying to hold it back. DH tried to comfort me and even begged me to stop crying becuase he felt so bad. After a few days like that, on shabbat, I was in bed and started crying again. When DH tried to sooth me I told him that I think I NEED to cry, to let it all out, to stop holding back on the tears. I asked him to let me and just be there for me. I cried and cried. I don't know if I felt better after that but it was the first time I cried for rea. I think it's important to stop over analysing (when possible) and just let our emotions out.
THe shiva situation mentioed above remind me of my family. Everyone holds everything back. Siblings are fighting but never show emotion, people are dying and no one sheds a tear. I try to be different.

m in Israel

Sun, Jul 14 2013, 5:21 am

I think it probably does have a cultural component. When I was in camp I remember Tisha B'Av at night when just the older girls and teen staff were sitting in the room after Kinnos, and people were standing up and talking about their feelings about Tisha B'Av and telling their own stories, most of the room was crying. On Tisha B'Av night during the years when I was not in camp I remember sitting with my mother and sisters on the floor reading medrashing about the Churban and crying. And certainly on Yom Kippur EVERYONE always cried through unesanah tokef, including the Baal Tefilla (I davened at a small, OOT yeshiva minyan -- maybe people were less self-conscious there?). I also remember some people crying during vidui. My experiences at shiva homes have also been very different than what you describe -- not only do I often see the aveilim cry, but even sometimes those coming to be menachem aval -- especially when it is an unusual type of shiva like for a young person or someone who died suddenly.

Now I do try to be careful with what I read on Tisha B'Av day because my little kids get scared when they see me cry. (I was reading an article over Shabbos about a woman who lost her child and was crying, and my 4 year old said "are you reading something sad?" When I said yes, he said "so stop reading!!!".)

I wonder if I just travel in circles where people are more expressive?

PinkFridge

Sun, Jul 14 2013, 10:16 am

oliveoil wrote:

I'm not sure this problem is as widespread as you seem to think. Most people I know certainly know how to be sad and grieve when relevant and appropriate.

Oh sure, the mother who dies of cancer leaving pitzelach, a special needs child who died of cancer, people we know who are living but might as well be the living dead for the tremendous pain they have... the personal narratives hit us in the kishkas. The question is, how do we tap in to mourning the Bais Hamikdash, the absolute horrors of the churban (the starvation, massacres, survivors sold into slavery), the absence of Hashem's revealed glory, all the bad things happening to good people, whether acts of Hashem or man's inhumanity to man....

seeker

Sun, Jul 14 2013, 12:07 pm

Of course it's cultural. We live in a world where "real men don't cry" (there has been some trend against this but it was well established for decades already) and then feminism taught us that the ultimate woman is more like a man. We're told "don't worry, be happy" and people who get too sad are given medicine to fix them because something is very wrong. People are too busy going on with their business to tune into their or others' feelings and process them appropriately. It's cool to be, well, cool. Needing help feels uncomfortably like weakness; people get up after nearly breaking their necks and quickly brush themselves off and say "No thanks, I'm fine."

Tweedledee's shiva example was a great illustration. I think my own shiva experience reflected the same. I actually had a respected rebbetzin tell me there was no reason to cry. I would have punched her in the face, except, yknow, self control, as someone else mentioned.

I believe that the repression of healthy emotions is responsible for much of the rise in both mental illness and physical symptoms. The stress has to go somewhere, if you don't deal with it.

etky

Sun, Jul 14 2013, 5:30 pm

Crying in public undermines the personal barriers that members of western society erect for themselves to shield their emotional privacy. When you cry in public you are dropping the facade and allowing others a glimpse of your raw, unmediated emotions. Most people are uncomfortable doing this and most will also feel equally uncomfortable in the presence of someone else who has let down their guard and is crying. The unexpected intimacy that is evoked, especially between strangers, can be unsettling and discomfiting, even in a religious setting, especially if this is not the norm in that particular setting.

esty3

Mon, Jul 15 2013, 10:19 pm

Watching this clip helped bring tears to my eyes. In addition, it helped me get a glimpse of the pain of tisha b'av http://www.youtube.com/watch?N.....creen

GoldFlowers

Mon, Jul 15 2013, 11:54 pm

Am I the only one who is wondering when crying turned into the goal of tisha b'av? Crying and mourning are not the same thing. And talking about how to make yourself cry just seems like an oxymoron.

rainbow baby

Tue, Jul 16 2013, 2:49 am

I have to say there are two years that I really felt the day of tisha b'av. The first was the year that gush katif was given away, the second last year after I had a stillbirth. If we are honest with ourselves it's hard to get into tisha b'av.

Someone mentioned before about their family who had sit Shiva and two bil had sat there joking, crying and laughing are interchangeable, they are actually very similar emotions. some people cope with joking, it's there way of getting through it. last year I would be a crying mess one minute the next a Minutes laughing and joking.

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