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-> Judaism
scrltfr
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 Tue, Jul 16 2013, 10:30 am
Ty for posting this. Very powerful
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umlikeyeah
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Tue, Jul 16 2013, 11:55 am
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How do the Muslims do it? I was watching a documentary once on world religions. There was a clip of some day of mourning Muslims have. And there was this clip as the Oman was talking everyone just bawled and cried. Tears all around.even little kids.even teenage boys. How are they able to turn it on when we can't?
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umlikeyeah
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Tue, Jul 16 2013, 12:02 pm
| GoldFlowers wrote: | | Am I the only one who is wondering when crying turned into the goal of tisha b'av? Crying and mourning are not the same thing. And talking about how to make yourself cry just seems like an oxymoron. |
I don't think they mean crying in and of itself but mourning to the point that you are moved to tears.
Last edited by umlikeyeah on Tue, Jul 16 2013, 12:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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yogabird
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Tue, Jul 16 2013, 12:03 pm
| PinkFridge wrote: | | oliveoil wrote: | | I'm not sure this problem is as widespread as you seem to think. Most people I know certainly know how to be sad and grieve when relevant and appropriate. |
Oh sure, the mother who dies of cancer leaving pitzelach, a special needs child who died of cancer, people we know who are living but might as well be the living dead for the tremendous pain they have... the personal narratives hit us in the kishkas. The question is, how do we tap in to mourning the Bais Hamikdash, the absolute horrors of the churban (the starvation, massacres, survivors sold into slavery), the absence of Hashem's revealed glory, all the bad things happening to good people, whether acts of Hashem or man's inhumanity to man.... |
I think the answer to your question is right in your post. The churban is so removed for us, that the only way to relate to it at all is by using all the sadness we see around us that actually touches and moves us as a means to help us relate to that sadness.
Whenever I'm actually moved to tears about a tzara that I hear, I think to myself that part of my tears should be ki'ilu I'm crying for the churban, because this is the only way I know how to cry.
And it really isn't *just* a tool, because all the sadness that exists today is in fact a direct result of that sadness...
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umlikeyeah
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Tue, Jul 16 2013, 12:09 pm
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Yoga,I think the ops point was that many are numbed to sadness period, including what's all around us.there are so many tzaros that we just shut it off and can't feel sadness anymore. I very much relate to that.
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etky
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Tue, Jul 16 2013, 12:09 pm
| umlikeyeah wrote: | | How do the Muslims do it? I was watching a documentary once on world religions. There was a clip of some day of mourning Muslims have. And there was this clip as the Oman was talking everyone just bawled and cried. Tears all around.even little kids.even teenage boys. How are they able to turn it on when we can't? |
Totally different culture with a different concept of what is appropriate in the public realm. They also perform public self-flagellation on a certain holiday (the Ashura).
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etky
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Tue, Jul 16 2013, 12:23 pm
| umlikeyeah wrote: | | Yoga,I think the ops point was that many are numbed to sadness period, including what's all around us.there are so many tzaros that we just shut it off and can't feel sadness anymore. I very much relate to that. |
These are really three different issues being discussed concurrently on this thread: the difficulty in relating to the sadness of the churban, cultural restrictions that apply to public demonstrations of sadness and mourning, as well as the ethos of modern western society and/or the overexposure to tragedy that militate against feeling sad in general.
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yogabird
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Tue, Jul 16 2013, 12:37 pm
| etky wrote: | | umlikeyeah wrote: | | Yoga,I think the ops point was that many are numbed to sadness period, including what's all around us.there are so many tzaros that we just shut it off and can't feel sadness anymore. I very much relate to that. |
These are really three different issues being discussed concurrently on this thread: the difficulty in relating to the sadness of the churban, cultural restrictions that apply to public demonstrations of sadness and mourning, as well as the ethos of modern western society and/or the overexposure to tragedy that militate against feeling sad in general. |
yeah. I was sorta responding to pink's comment, not really to op.
But in my experience, anyways, it's all related. I used to think I wasn't capable of feeling sadness, until the tzara really hit home.
And the flip side of this idea is that you can't experience a negative emotion until you've experienced the positive side of that same emotion.
For example, as a kid, I could never understand what was so terrible about a person losing a parent. As an adult I realize it's because I never really had a relationship with them. Now that I'm in a wonderful, loving marriage, BH, I am able to begin to imagine what it would mean to lose someone that I love. Same goes for a kid. Everyone knows it's sad, but until you have one of your own and experience that fierce love, protectiveness, and total connection, you can not begin to fathom the sadness in losing one, CHV.
For me, it's like that with the bais hamikdash and also with mourning in general. It's easy to mourn when the pain hits home, so maybe we have to just make it hit home more. And that's what I meant by using your imagination to connect tzaros that DO touch you to what you should be feeling about the churban.
On the other hand, we can barely be expected to fathom the spiritual richness and total love affair between Hashem and us that was going on at the time of the bais hamikdash, so it's hard for us to even see that as a loss.
And that's why, I think that if we're just able to mourn tzaros of today and realize that they're a result of hester panim, and keep believing and having faith that at a time of geula none of this would exist, what more can be expected of us?!
We were born in a cave, and have always lived in one. All we have are the legends of that wonderful thing called sunlight to keep us going...
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etky
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Tue, Jul 16 2013, 12:57 pm
Very true, Yoga.
It is very hard for us nowadays to fathom the intimacy of the relationship that we once enjoyed, as a people, with Hashem. That is why we find it hard to grieve for its absence. We are afforded glimpses through our written sources but even so, it is often hard to relate emotionally.
We do our best. I think that aside from fasting, as long as our minds are focused on the churban during this day, that counts for a lot.
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yogabird
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Tue, Jul 16 2013, 1:03 pm
| etky wrote: | Very true, Yoga.
It is very hard for us nowadays to fathom the intimacy of the relationship that we once enjoyed, as a people, with Hashem. That is why we find it hard to grieve for its absence. We are afforded glimpses through our written sources but even so, it is often hard to relate emotionally.
We do our best. I think that aside from fasting, as long as our minds are focused on the churban during this day, that counts for a lot. |
Yup.
(and while we're doing our best, we can keep in mind that there's always more to work towards. the person who is able to actually sense the great tragedy that the destruction of the churban is will be the one to appreciate the most the joy in its rebuilding.
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etky
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Tue, Jul 16 2013, 1:08 pm
| yogabird wrote: | | etky wrote: | Very true, Yoga.
It is very hard for us nowadays to fathom the intimacy of the relationship that we once enjoyed, as a people, with Hashem. That is why we find it hard to grieve for its absence. We are afforded glimpses through our written sources but even so, it is often hard to relate emotionally.
We do our best. I think that aside from fasting, as long as our minds are focused on the churban during this day, that counts for a lot. |
Yup.
(and while we're doing our best, we can keep in mind that there's always more to work towards. the person who is able to actually sense the great tragedy that the destruction of the churban is will be the one to appreciate the most the joy in its rebuilding. |
Amen. Nice to close the fast on that optimistic note.
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yogabird
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Tue, Jul 16 2013, 1:16 pm
| etky wrote: | | yogabird wrote: | | etky wrote: | Very true, Yoga.
It is very hard for us nowadays to fathom the intimacy of the relationship that we once enjoyed, as a people, with Hashem. That is why we find it hard to grieve for its absence. We are afforded glimpses through our written sources but even so, it is often hard to relate emotionally.
We do our best. I think that aside from fasting, as long as our minds are focused on the churban during this day, that counts for a lot. |
Yup.
(and while we're doing our best, we can keep in mind that there's always more to work towards. the person who is able to actually sense the great tragedy that the destruction of the churban is will be the one to appreciate the most the joy in its rebuilding. |
Amen. Nice to close the fast on that optimistic note. |
Lshana habaah biyerushalayim habnuyah.
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sleepless mom
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Tue, Jul 16 2013, 2:14 pm
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I watched this it's a video from the churban bais hamikdash and it made my eyes filed with tears...Watch "חורבן בית המקדש - הסרט המלא מדהים ועוצמתי!" on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/watch?.....layer
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fromthedepths
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Tue, Jul 16 2013, 2:15 pm
| yogabird wrote: | | etky wrote: | | umlikeyeah wrote: | | Yoga,I think the ops point was that many are numbed to sadness period, including what's all around us.there are so many tzaros that we just shut it off and can't feel sadness anymore. I very much relate to that. |
These are really three different issues being discussed concurrently on this thread: the difficulty in relating to the sadness of the churban, cultural restrictions that apply to public demonstrations of sadness and mourning, as well as the ethos of modern western society and/or the overexposure to tragedy that militate against feeling sad in general. |
yeah. I was sorta responding to pink's comment, not really to op.
But in my experience, anyways, it's all related. I used to think I wasn't capable of feeling sadness, until the tzara really hit home.
And the flip side of this idea is that you can't experience a negative emotion until you've experienced the positive side of that same emotion.
For example, as a kid, I could never understand what was so terrible about a person losing a parent. As an adult I realize it's because I never really had a relationship with them. Now that I'm in a wonderful, loving marriage, BH, I am able to begin to imagine what it would mean to lose someone that I love. Same goes for a kid. Everyone knows it's sad, but until you have one of your own and experience that fierce love, protectiveness, and total connection, you can not begin to fathom the sadness in losing one, CHV.
For me, it's like that with the bais hamikdash and also with mourning in general. It's easy to mourn when the pain hits home, so maybe we have to just make it hit home more. And that's what I meant by using your imagination to connect tzaros that DO touch you to what you should be feeling about the churban.
On the other hand, we can barely be expected to fathom the spiritual richness and total love affair between Hashem and us that was going on at the time of the bais hamikdash, so it's hard for us to even see that as a loss.
And that's why, I think that if we're just able to mourn tzaros of today and realize that they're a result of hester panim, and keep believing and having faith that at a time of geula none of this would exist, what more can be expected of us?!
We were born in a cave, and have always lived in one. All we have are the legends of that wonderful thing called sunlight to keep us going... |
I love your post. And the cave analogy. And I'm sorry you didn't have a close relationship with your parents growing up. (((Hugs)))
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sleepless mom
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Tue, Jul 16 2013, 2:20 pm
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I watched this it's a video from the churban bais hamikdash and it made my eyes filed with tears...Watch "חורבן בית המקדש - הסרט המלא מדהים ועוצמתי!" on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/watch?.....layer
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QUEENY
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Tue, Jul 16 2013, 2:23 pm
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I get very emotional when I hear or see stories about the Holocaust. I think its bc I grew up with a Grandmother who was a survivor and it was such a big part of our curriculum in school. I just watched Bobby Neumann video created by aish about a survivor and I cried through the whole thing. I guess I feel that churban more so but to me its the same.
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chocolate moose
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Tue, Jul 16 2013, 3:41 pm
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If HaShem doesn't like the way we observe Tisha B'av,let Him take it away from us !!!
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yogabird
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Tue, Jul 16 2013, 3:52 pm
| fromthedepths wrote: | | yogabird wrote: | | etky wrote: | | umlikeyeah wrote: | | Yoga,I think the ops point was that many are numbed to sadness period, including what's all around us.there are so many tzaros that we just shut it off and can't feel sadness anymore. I very much relate to that. |
These are really three different issues being discussed concurrently on this thread: the difficulty in relating to the sadness of the churban, cultural restrictions that apply to public demonstrations of sadness and mourning, as well as the ethos of modern western society and/or the overexposure to tragedy that militate against feeling sad in general. |
yeah. I was sorta responding to pink's comment, not really to op.
But in my experience, anyways, it's all related. I used to think I wasn't capable of feeling sadness, until the tzara really hit home.
And the flip side of this idea is that you can't experience a negative emotion until you've experienced the positive side of that same emotion.
For example, as a kid, I could never understand what was so terrible about a person losing a parent. As an adult I realize it's because I never really had a relationship with them. Now that I'm in a wonderful, loving marriage, BH, I am able to begin to imagine what it would mean to lose someone that I love. Same goes for a kid. Everyone knows it's sad, but until you have one of your own and experience that fierce love, protectiveness, and total connection, you can not begin to fathom the sadness in losing one, CHV.
For me, it's like that with the bais hamikdash and also with mourning in general. It's easy to mourn when the pain hits home, so maybe we have to just make it hit home more. And that's what I meant by using your imagination to connect tzaros that DO touch you to what you should be feeling about the churban.
On the other hand, we can barely be expected to fathom the spiritual richness and total love affair between Hashem and us that was going on at the time of the bais hamikdash, so it's hard for us to even see that as a loss.
And that's why, I think that if we're just able to mourn tzaros of today and realize that they're a result of hester panim, and keep believing and having faith that at a time of geula none of this would exist, what more can be expected of us?!
We were born in a cave, and have always lived in one. All we have are the legends of that wonderful thing called sunlight to keep us going... |
I love your post. And the cave analogy. And I'm sorry you didn't have a close relationship with your parents growing up. (((Hugs))) |
The analogy's not mine. Credit goes to the Baal Hatanya.
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yogabird
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Tue, Jul 16 2013, 3:53 pm
| chocolate moose wrote: | | If HaShem doesn't like the way we observe Tisha B'av,let Him take it away from us !!! |
I totally agree! It's almost unreasonable to expect us to mourn something we've never had to begin with!
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