"Rationalist" Judaism ("safe haven" style)

Peanut2

Wed, Dec 04 2013, 4:52 am

Isramom8 wrote:

OP, please know that you have many intelligent people on your side, people who know the young man (well, he's older now than he used to be) who started this "movement", and are not impressed or intimidated by his offbeat behavior. Things are not always what they seem.

You may want to read Rav Moshe Meiselman's new very scholarly book, Torah, Chazal and Science. The young man of "rationalist Judaism" doesn't like it, of course. But you're missing a lot of personal history with him.

How, in any event, can tumah and tahara be explained "rationally"? Or miracles? There is a whole spiritual reality that exists beyond what we experience with our physical senses. There is so much more.

Rationalist Judaism was invented supposedly to keep questioners on the derech. What a shame if what it's doing is weakening Jews in their faith and practice.

I hope your DH isn't beyond hearing these "rational" thoughts.

* Coming from a place of having personally tried to patch up this rift between the founder and a certain rav years ago, and having the emails to prove it. And a rabbi we know very well has tried very recently to do the same.

And yes, I not only "read" the most recent "rationalist" book - I studied it.

I don't know what you are talking about and who this person is.

But I agree that even the most rational approach to Judaism is not objective and rational in the purest sense. Believing in God might be rational, but belief in Torah and Halacha, as others mentioned, is about commitment. It doesnt sound like thats what the OP is talking about. Miracles you might be able to find explanations for, but ultimately to keep mitzvot you have to accept some premise: God have us the Torah and required things of us, or I like this tradition and want to be part of it, or I find the frum community and religion to fulfill a human need to spiritually and a sense of belonging and so on, or I have an appreciation for the way Halacha was developed by human hands over the years. There isn't a rational explanation for why we do this and not that.

chaiz

Wed, Dec 04 2013, 5:05 am

Isramom8 wrote:

Fine so if you studied it you should know that he is not offbeat. And if you call his behavior offbeat, I would tell you some of the activity against him are more than offbeat. (If we are talking about the same person, which I think we are) Look, I am a Lubavitcher and would probably be called anti-rationalist by some people. I know that the person is not honest and more importantly has not respect of others who do not think the way he does. But does not make it all wrong. Especially as there is support for the ideas. And the people who are not impressed by his ideas have done nothing to really explain why he is wrong and why they are right. Of course none of this is really taught. Often the answer is cliches and platitudes. Does not get you very far.

Tzippora

Wed, Dec 04 2013, 5:31 am

My DH and I tend strongly towards rationalist Judaism, and I come from a fairly rationalist (read litvish) but yeshivish home in a lot of ways.

It's hard to separate out what you believe in or took for granted even rock on closer examination it may not be logical. But I firmly believe that while that approach may not make you happy - it's a lonely road - it will make you think more deeply and will ultimately be better for you. To approach it otherwise is willful ignorance. It's a big deal and is impressive of you to be so thoughtful about it.

That doesn't mean you cannot do things that are not "rationalist".I will always do certain things because "that's how my bubby does them" and that's OK. rationally, I have no problem with women lining megilla. culturally, it isn't for me. And that's OK. We all need taam and that doesn't contradict rationality, in fact, it's necessary.

On the other hand, I did start blowing out my havdala candle rather than dipping it when people wouldn't stop putting their fingers into the wine and rubbing it places. It's either superstition (dumb) or outright AZ.

I'm happy to help because I've also been in that situation where my husband is, shall I say, more machmir in his rationalism than I. like any difference in this area, it's hard but I might have some ideas for you if you have any specific issues you're facing.

amother

Wed, Dec 04 2013, 6:27 am

Well, I came across Rabbeinu Avraham ben HaRambam's essay at the introduction to Ein Yaakov only a few days ago for the first time, and it completely blew my mind, in a good way.

I had no idea of the significance of it until today, when I sat here and did some online research. But this does describe how my FIL practices and lives his life, in a rational approach to judaism. Unfortunately it gets messed up with my MILs pure apikorsus, and the outcome is that my dh is confused.

But we read that essay together, and for the first time felt that there is room for application of our intellectual logic to jewish learning and practice, until now we have both been a little scared to challenge the authority even in our own minds.

I don't know how far we will go with this, it is unlikely to change our practice, but we are there somewhere, looking for those answers that are just not satisfactory in our accepted folklore or literal midrashic translation of the pshat, which we are coming to realise more and more is not necessarily the only way to interpret.

It is a little scary, but reassuring, that this is still within the umbrella of orthodoxy, with it's own mesorah going far far back. But what is scarier, is that the current chareidi world feels it must suppress this kind of thinking, to the point where it is pushing people out the door for completely valid reasoning.

Ruchel

Wed, Dec 04 2013, 6:37 am

Rationalist Judaism, as a whole, not a precise movement, can be linked to Rambam etc. It's not "more modern" or less frum just different. Nothing to do with Biblical criticism! (bh).

You can be very machmir and very rationalist, think of some Yekkes, some Litvish, some Sefardim.

There are also many non-rationalist people who are not shomer mitsvos... or are lite MO but not from a rationalist brand. I know many, many around me. Or of course you can be NR and very frum, like many chassidim, and many North African Jews.

I heard from a charedi rav, believing NO midrash is as problematic as believing them all...

Again, I'm very heimish minded so I'm not the best to talk rationalism, but just putting this out there.

bamamama

Wed, Dec 04 2013, 7:10 am

Peanut2 wrote:

Isramom8 wrote:

She's talking about Rabbi Slifkin and his feud with Rabbi Meiselman. Call a spade a spade, ladies. No need to make mysterious allusions when mud-slinging.

amother

Wed, Dec 04 2013, 8:04 am

I cant really understand what you are referring to without any examles of what is bothering you day to day irl.

You can stop having intellectual religious conversations if that helps.

I personally don't believe in superstitions or questionable sources but that is without any rational or belonging to any group. Pinkies for havdalah, shlissel challahs, segulahs in general that revolve around making you rich etc seems all against the religion altogether (don't mean to offend anyone, just my opinion)

I was always taught that tons of midrashim and other stuff were not literal, or have both literal and non literal interpretations in my very regular BY upbringing.

There are many explanations that have science agreeing with the Torah, it is said 70 panim. So if you just heard 30 panim and your dh finds a different 20 of them meaningful, as long as he isn't flipping to non orthodox schools of thought, maybe he should have talks with like-minded men and leave the talking with you for other topics like what you both like talking about and not this stuff. It would be better for your shalom bayis.

Some things we are taught though as small children are regularly edited down and not everyone learns further on those topics as adults.

Idk, as long as his ways are not reform Judaism and posing a real significant how to live as a family unit issue then I think you should avoid stressing your relationship by discussing this stuff. I think anything that challenges you come post here on imamother and we have tons of very learned posters who can help you with how to make sense of what you find upsetting or at least whether you should really worry or not. People may post of other authorities in learning have said the same things and make you more comfortable with it.

amother

Wed, Dec 04 2013, 9:52 am

This is not the OP, sorry for confusion.

amother wrote:

PinkFridge

Wed, Dec 04 2013, 10:27 am

Chani8, do you mean Rabbi Uri Zohar's My Friends, We've Been Robbed? (Originally Waking Up Jewish)

And since Bamamama names names: Isramom, I was all set to suggest the book but I don't know how easily someone on the "other side" (I hate using that term, us and them, etc. but right not it's convenient) would be mekabel.

Now I'm going to say something and OP, my sincere apologies if this shows how little I get it. Let me start by saying I'm not chassidish, I'm quite Litvish, though I do participate in challah segulos if only to give chizuk to the people posting the names. But to me, there are some important givens in our Yiddishkeit. One is to approach things with humility, and another, to have a mentors, as in aseh lecha rav. I think that you would have a lot more menuchas hanefesh if there were more IRL people you could have contact with, a rav, something resembling a community, instead of just a virtual, individualistic thing.

This isn't outsourcing our brains and avodah, it's real Jewish living. I remember hearing someone, no names but people will know who, a talk show host who's not observant but vaguely Jewishly literate pontificate on how he doesn't keep the second day of yom tov in galus because it just doesn't make sense to him. What an arrogant presumptious pipsqueak! He really feels himself, by his lonesome, greater than the greats of the Talmud and throughout history and even today? So somewhere there is a place, maybe a middle of ground, of thinking for yourself, but, as great as you are, if this is uncharted territory, having someone else with broad shoulders to bounce things off of. (Or is this what the Rav, zt'l, talks of in his book The Lonely Man of Faith? I haven't read it.)

Does this make any sense?

PinkFridge

Wed, Dec 04 2013, 10:48 am

Tzippora wrote:

The second day of yom tov doesn't make any sense. And hasn't since we got a calendar. There. I said it.

I keep it for social reasons only because anyone with half a brain can see it isn't logical for it to exist.

Like I said, I may not be immersed enough in the rationalist world to comment intelligibly. There's still a large divide between Nosson Slifkin and the person I quoted though.
And while I understand that yom tov sheini doesn't seem necessary, I personally still do if for more than social reasons. I would find having to live that way difficult, to say the least.

yogabird

Wed, Dec 04 2013, 11:09 am

5*Mom wrote:

I have no idea who she's talking about either. We learn from Torah sources, not the movement-du-jour. This is so much bigger than one contemporary *young man.*

Isramom8 wrote:

There is a whole spiritual reality that exists beyond what we experience with our physical senses. There is so much more.

Indeed. Know anything about quantum physics?

You don't even have to know about quantum physics to realize that limiting all of existence to That Which Can Be Understood By The Human Mind is absurd. Even cat brains and fish brain can sense things the human mind can't, like certain light and sound wave frequencies.

Traditional Judaism isn't irrational. It's suprarational.

Mind worship is so ala Hellenism. And aside from being ridiculous, it's so uncreative. "G-d is our mightiest warrior, only stronger. G-d is the prettiest woman, only more beautiful. G-d is the wisest scholar, only smarter."

So if you were just a wee bit wiser, you'd be able to create the universe and all that is in it? I smell a rotten apple and the sin of the tree of knowledge.

Tzippora

Wed, Dec 04 2013, 11:22 am

yogabird wrote:

5*Mom wrote:

I have no idea who she's talking about either. We learn from Torah sources, not the movement-du-jour. This is so much bigger than one contemporary *young man.*

Isramom8 wrote:

There is a whole spiritual reality that exists beyond what we experience with our physical senses. There is so much more.

Indeed. Know anything about quantum physics?

we have evidence to indicate the existence of the things we cannot detect on our own, like ultraviolet light or quantum physics. The same is not true of whatever mystical framework you are proposing.

I'm not sure why it's Hellenism if I don't want to believe six impossible things before breakfast, or even six things that I have no reason to believe based on the evidence. And God doesn't demand it of me either

5*Mom

Wed, Dec 04 2013, 11:24 am

yogabird wrote:

5*Mom wrote:

I have no idea who she's talking about either. We learn from Torah sources, not the movement-du-jour. This is so much bigger than one contemporary *young man.*

Isramom8 wrote:

There is a whole spiritual reality that exists beyond what we experience with our physical senses. There is so much more.

Indeed. Know anything about quantum physics?

Apologies to OP, but this thread has me lol'ing. So many assumptions but nobody's really talking about the same thing at all. As usual.