Dds school said my shaitel is too long

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Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling

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amother

Tue, Feb 25 2014, 3:34 pm

malkacooks wrote:

I've seen the pictures too. my bubbie was in one of the early BY schools in poland. I dont have a pic scanned or I would show you but the necklines and short sleeves always shocked me and my sister. My bubbie used to say that back then pp didnt make a big deal about those things b\c these things were still considered tzniut.

SHe also said that there was no shudduch crisis b\c noone was crazy then Smile

she said that if a mother thought a boy would be a good shuddach, she would march over to the boy's house and say so to the boy and his mother Very Happy

Oh how that used to shock us... lol

I don't know if that is true. the family story goes that my Great aunt went OTD and married a non Jew. My great great grandfather told my grandmother and her sister to move to Israel since no one would want to marry them now. This was in pre war England, not Poland or wherever.

amother

Tue, Feb 25 2014, 3:37 pm

Dolly, if you read any of Rochel from France's post she said that whole , our grandparents lived in idyllic bliss, is one big fairy tale

If anything, all the extremist nonsense is pushing more boys and girls OTD than antime in the past 50 years.
Especially, when you consider that you perhaps you personally are very idealistic and concerned about protecting the innocence and tradition of these girls

But I can tell you from first hand experience dealing with many women who make the decisions in these schools that its primarily about arrogance and status for the school .

Barbara

Tue, Feb 25 2014, 3:40 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

I just meant that as society is very different from our grandparents' time, and much maritally worse, we have to be more careful now. We have to be stricter, and more emphatic and obvious, because morals in general are very different now.

Yes, it's being defensive.

Well, it's not crazy to be defensive when there is a need for it.

Our ancestors lived conventional lives. They dressed like others and lived like others. They could do that and be good frum Jews because the world in general was living that way, too. In the sense that there was no Miley Cyrus back then.

Miley Cyrus was the idol of zillions of pre-pubescent girls not so long ago, on TV.

She was a national figure for the innocent.

She's still a national figure, and the same girls are still looking. They have aged too, along with her. And they remember they used to admire and trust her. Perhaps some still admire and trust her. It gives to think.

She is drawing some criticism, but her message is out. Nobody hasn't heard of her, and nobody doesn't know what she's doing these days, in excruciating detail, including the very young, out in the normal world.

I am not against being careful and even a little over-careful in a world like this.

Our grandparents didn't have to deal with this.

Those black and white photos that show their elbows have nothing to do with present conditions.

Back then you could be frum and normal.

But normal has abandoned us. We are the last Mohicans who live the old way. We need to be a little scared.

We have to try much harder and put up with more fussing and rules than our grandparents did, to keep alive the difference between us and what has become normal.

OK, back to the excellent posts that came after the question of what in the world did I mean. That's what I meant.

So you're saying that in a world in which the most risque women wore short sleeves, it would be tzniut to wear short sleeves and open necks. But in a world in which the most risque women wear strapless gowns with tons of cleavage, wearing short sleeves and open necks is no longer tzniut.

Why does that make sense?

In any case, I think you're reading a sanitized account of what the world was like before today. It wasn't all Ozzie and Harriet, with Mom cleaning the kitchen in a shirtwaist and pearls. There was, and always has been, a lot of lust and z3x and innuendo.

Dolly Welsh

Tue, Feb 25 2014, 4:48 pm

If a grim-faced committee of Charedi women marched up to the school, or camped outside, demanding that this MO thing stop, I would see why you would be annoyed.

But this phone call came from within the MO camp. WITHIN. From a woman OP knows well.

The caller isn't saying "MO is icky and bad and not proper Judaism."

She's MO herself.

If this is really just horrible middos, then change schools or home school.

But OP herself is uneasy with what her fellow mothers at that school are wearing. I opined that the call was just to treat everybody sort of the same. The caller may have not wanted OP to say "Oh! You got a call? Ewww. I DIDN'T GET ONE". That would not do, so they call everybody.

If you think a busy administrator makes calls to keep the customers sufficiently scared, so they will know their place, no, it's not nice.

If that's really what you think they are like, it's time for home tutoring. There are a lot of unemployed educated people who would love the money.

PinkFridge

Tue, Feb 25 2014, 4:50 pm

amother wrote:

Dolly, normally I love what you say its usually spot on, but this time I think your wrong.

I think every generation has this oh no these young pp are crazy and "in my time we never had to deal with this." the pp that say before the holocaust pp were going off the derech is no different then the pp that go off the derech today. I'm sure back then they said we arent as frum as the previous generation because________.

your right today we have internet and tv and all that other stuff but back then there were temptations too.

I'm not knocking anyone but I think we need to be realistic about the past. I personally blame all those rabbi and rebbizen bios that portray them as pp who never ate, slept, or had relations with their wives yet still managed to have 12 kids.

I'm posting anon because of the information I'm saying and how some of my friends will be mad at me for saying it but I really cant hold it in anymore. do you really think pp like the chofez chaim, rashi and others cared a fig about hair length, elbows, etc. What these schools are doing is wrong. All they do is embarrass the children, families, etc.

I wouldn't say they didn't care. There's a story, I think of the Klausenberger Rebbe, who gave his socks to a girl who didn't have any in the DP camps. But how they express that caring, ah, that's what we need to see. When done right, being mechanech in tznius isn't a bad thing at all.

And I really get your post. I can't say I'm as fed up as you are, but I understand.

amother

Tue, Feb 25 2014, 5:06 pm

malkacooks wrote:

OP- what did you decide? we are all so curious

Op here. Well, I'm actually following this thread and finding the discussion really interesting. I honestly started it just to vent and I appreciated all the support. I decided to cut one of my old shaitels and it looks rather nice. I'm keeping my other two long for now and will wear the shorter one to school when I go. Now I'm hoping I won't hear from them again.

Just for the record, my shaitel is not longer than all the mothers but some. Some posts quoted me for saying that but my op clearly says most mothers. After discussing it with a friend who's involved in the school we came to the conclusion that approximately 35% of the mothers dress like me. So I may be less "frum" than the majority but a nice percentage of the parent body is like me.

Barbara

Tue, Feb 25 2014, 5:20 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

Why are you turning this into MO vs. non-MO? I'd wager that the OP isn't MO. I'd wager that no MO school has ever threatened to kick a kid out because mom's sheitl is too long.

So what?

This thread is about the role of a school in controlling parents' attire outside of school, particularly where the parents' attire is not particularly immodest.

And about what is acceptable in OP's community. Not in mine. Not in yours. Hers.

amother

Tue, Feb 25 2014, 5:25 pm

Barbara wrote:

Op here. This. Thank you Barbara.

Dolly Welsh

Tue, Feb 25 2014, 8:48 pm

Ah, I didn't get it. I thought a long sheitel means MO. I was wrong. ("MO" isn't an insult from me. Not at all.)

What I did feel funny about was somebody's passing remark up there that they are afraid of turning off their daughters with too much image restraining.

Afraid the daughter(s) might even feel like going OTD from these restrictions.

That could be looked at.

It would be a pity to be afraid of the school, and also the daughters. From opposite directions. One pulling one way and the other the other way.

That's too much fear. Not fun.

In fact I had a horrible suspicion the whole issue is the fear of the daughters' wrath and rebellion.

But that is silly.

But OP seems to be fine, so it's all good.

Dolly Welsh

Tue, Feb 25 2014, 9:01 pm

As for the idyllic bliss of the past, I really walked around in the past, and it was very different.

Idyllic, no, but very different.

The world used to live the way you live. The only difference was they had pork roast on Sunday and fish on Friday. But they all dressed what is now called "charedi". Skirt. Blouse. You knew people had knees but you didn't expect or want to see them particularly.

As home is a time not a place, to me that's normal.

Perhaps at issue here is whether behavior and costume are linked.

Of course they aren't.

I would completely ignore a bunny costume in the operating theater.

I would figure the surgeon liked that kind of thing and all he has to do is just cut me properly, and he can wear anything he wants.

Just because he's wearing a bunny costume doesn't mean he is actually a bunny. Or that he has to hop.

Of course he might hop sometimes, but I assume he would have anyway, no matter what he wore.

Perhaps some people do look down, see what they are wearing, and are influenced to behave a certain way.

And then there is the power of others' expectations.

If you look a certain way, people expect certain things from you, and if you contradict their expectations they get mad, and are mean to you. So to avoid that, you start acting consistently with how you look.

imasoftov

Sun, Sep 03 2017, 7:02 pm

amother wrote:

Be good this sounds exactly like Bnos yaakov. They measure the girls pony tails once a month, they go around with a ruler.

Just out, a video of that. And a letter to Yeshiva World News which I don't expect to stay there for long https://www.theyeshivaworld.co......html

amother

Lavender

Sun, Sep 03 2017, 9:00 pm

I hugged the above post, but what I really wanted to do was hug all those children who have been put through this de-humanizing experience. Hugs to all our children who are being spiritually and emotionally molested in these ways. Hugs to all the mothers and fathers who feel helpless and unable to take a stand and protect their children from this.

Blessing1

Sun, Sep 03 2017, 9:04 pm

I don't find it so de-humanizing, plenty of schools measure skirts. If they're doing it it's obviously for a good reason, maybe it has gotten out of hand & they have to take control?

amother

Saddlebrown

Sun, Sep 03 2017, 10:13 pm

This is child abuse!!!
Completely insane.
The teachers in the video are clearly mentally ill.
This is pathetic and dysfunctional and this is NOT JUDAISM.
This is perversion.

amother

Burgundy

Sun, Sep 03 2017, 10:17 pm

amother wrote:

This is child abuse!!!
Completely insane.
The teachers in the video are clearly mentally ill.
This is pathetic and dysfunctional and this is NOT JUDAISM.
This is perversion.

I think the woman measuring is girls' mom.

cnc

Sun, Sep 03 2017, 10:18 pm

amother wrote:

I think the woman measuring is girls' mom.

I'm pretty sure it is. The staff member refers to her as "Mommy".

asmileaday

Sun, Sep 03 2017, 10:30 pm

I felt like throwing up watching this video. This is tznius distortion at its worst.

This is what's wrong with adding chumras. In a few years this will become as mainstream as the 4" below the knee rule.

There are messages circulating though that due to the video going viral the school has stopped this. I wonder if that's true.

amother

Puce

Sun, Sep 03 2017, 10:34 pm

I heard that they were actually nit-checking and the girl humorously asked them to measure whether her hair is conforming to the school rules. No idea if that is true.

mommy3b2c

Sun, Sep 03 2017, 10:37 pm

Blessing1 wrote:

I don't find it so de-humanizing, plenty of schools measure skirts. If they're doing it it's obviously for a good reason, maybe it has gotten out of hand & they have to take control?

Interesting perspective. The video actually brought tears to my eyes. It was nauseating. I have no words. And I usually say live and let live. I heard that Rechnitz said that if they don't stop this disgusting behavior, he will not give any money to Lakewood schools anymore.

cnc

Sun, Sep 03 2017, 10:39 pm

amother wrote:

I heard that they were actually nit-checking and the girl humorously asked them to measure whether her hair is conforming to the school rules. No idea if that is true.

It's not. I have the note from the school stating that hair length will be checked during nit checking. It states the appropriate length and it says that if it exceeds the length it will need to be cut before school starts.

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