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Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling

DEAR NEIGHBOR,

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Ruchel

Mon, Mar 17 2014, 11:30 am

chavs wrote:

Calling social services doesn't automatically mean the kids get taken away unless there is serious abuse. From what I understand social services are there to help and support and thus might offer this mother the help that she needs.

Oh, by me they would laugh if you call for that.
BUT sometimes you find a weird social assistant who has hang ups... and sometimes also, one of them is antisemitic or anti religion or anti large family or anti whatever.
People need to be conscious of that.
As to whether and how they help... depends again on who you fall with. Russian roulette. There is a prayer to not fall in the hands of the non Jewish authorities, halachos about reporting someone to them instead of beth din (though, tbh, I see that more and more rabbis will say to go to them from start)...

I'm not judging. I agonized over something similar a couple years ago...

amother

Mon, Mar 17 2014, 1:59 pm

If you don't have your own kids why can't you casually offer to her once to help her out in the evening.

There is no rule that a chesed girl has to be single. Having extra hands in the house during bedtime\bathtime\homework time may help elevate some of her stress. I don't think that letter would help at all.

amother

Mon, Mar 17 2014, 2:08 pm

Let me ask u dear amother,
How would u feel if I offered to help u out in the evenings?

amother

Mon, Mar 17 2014, 4:15 pm

Not trying to steal this post, but what would you do if your husband spoke to your kids this way? The abusive way, not just regular yelling. The child this happens with most is very difficult but the putting down and screaming is very out of hand.

Do you stay married if everything else is good? I'm assuming as the kids get older he will stop. (This is one reason why I don't think we are having any more kids)

Do you get divorced? There will be damage to the kids from having divorced parents that also needs to be considered and also chances are I'll be yelling more-although not to that degree without his help.

The best scenario is to prob have him less hands on until this child gets easier but that is hard to do when I need his help.

What would you do? (Talking to him, therapy, parenting courses etc doesnt help. He doesnt want to be this way, he just completely loses control esp with this child. - no physical abuse, "just" horrible yelling.)

amother

Mon, Mar 17 2014, 4:31 pm

Actually, After I had my last baby one of my neighbors at the kiddush offered to send her daughter over and help out in the evenings. and the daughter called me a few days later and said she would be happy to come over then. She didn't even ask me if I needed her or give me room to say no. And she came. Its definitely nice.

If someone really needs help they will take it and not think about it.

sunlight

Mon, Mar 17 2014, 4:36 pm

The OP does not sound like she wants to get involved.

imaima

Mon, Mar 17 2014, 4:52 pm

sunlight wrote:

The OP does not sound like she wants to get involved.

Of course not. Because if she does, the truth will come out that not all kids can be disciplined by tucking in.

amother

Mon, Mar 17 2014, 4:54 pm

Hi! Op here
I don't mind getting involved im actually very much the type. But since I don't talk to her except for a good morning anything besides that would be awkward. Especially since I don't think she realizes I can hear everything.
I assume this neighbor of urs knew u and had a language with you when she offered. Correct?

sunlight

Mon, Mar 17 2014, 5:09 pm

[quote="amother"]Hi! Op here
I don't mind getting involved im actually very much the type. But since I don't talk to her except for a good morning anything besides that would be awkward. Especially since I don't think she realizes I can hear everything. quote]

Okay I take that back. You kept saying that all you wanted to do was to make others aware.
I think you might be able to say that you have some extra time in the evenings, and you wouldn't mind coming over to help if she ever needs it. Then if its a time that makes sense that she needs help, like a simcha in family, you can offer to help with babysitting or anything... and win the children's confidence. If you have a special skill that you want to develop, you can offer to do it for her free of charge... Just some ideas. Scratch the ideas if you don't like them. Smile

Good luck!!

Also wanted to add to all those out there that are saying its much harder than you imagine, there is a fine line between a healthy home and an unhealthy home, and its up to you as mother to take care that you are not running an unhealthy home. At least that much. If you are, and if you sound like the OP, get help.. and yes, I am a mother of a healthy toddler bh.

imaima

Mon, Mar 17 2014, 5:22 pm

amother wrote:

Didn't she borrow eggs from you?

amother

Mon, Mar 17 2014, 5:46 pm

Nopes I borrowed eggs from her and that was months ago

LiLIsraeli

Mon, Mar 17 2014, 6:58 pm

OP, if you are really concerned about the kids, why don't you befriend the mother? Strike up a conversation with her, or borrow things from her more often so you have an excuse to talk to her and see the kids. That way it wouldn't be weird if you offer to take her kids out for a bit, or babysit, or even pick up things at the grocery for her.

amother

Mon, Mar 17 2014, 7:23 pm

New amother here. I am starting to wonder if one of these critical posts are from one of my many neighbors who hear the daily screaming that goes on here. I scream a lot, my kids scream a lot, the windows are open often and I live on a very quiet block with older neighbors mostly. I lose it all of the time, unfortunately, and this is with a lot of help from professionals, medications and alternative treatments and parental guidance. I have a very difficult situation with 3 kids right now and I haven't had a break in over a decade.

No one else in this neighborhood screams or at least I never hear it. Very embarassing and horrifying if someone would actually think to call social services on us. I can't imagine what our neighbors think of us anyway but I'm so beyond the caring stage. I care more about what is going on in the house and I work very hard defusing growing tantrums so no neighbors hear the 90% of the time I succeed. Well, I know I am an amazing mother to my children. They get a lot of love, positive reinforcement and have made great strides even though daily living is in survival mode right now. I am just saying you never know the whole story. I get verbally abused daily by one child. The cursing and screaming that goes on is horrible. I don't curse ever but I get very upset by this and yell more than necessary sometimes. I am human and I think I am doing better than expected considering these circumstances. You can't divorce or run away from your child and start over.

I wish the OP to have wonderfully behaved and emotionally healthy children and never to understand firsthand how a great mother can totally lose it time and time again. And to those who are mothers already and think I am exaggerating and all the blame is on me, I wouldn't wish this on anyone. Let's see you walk a mile in my shoes.

Who are any of you to judge somebody else without going through what they go through? Perhaps OP is right in her assessment or maybe she doesn't know the half of it. If I would get a letter like she wrote, I would feel hurt, sure, but mostly feel pity that people have too much free time to go around building stories in their heads about how they would do things differently if they were in that situation. Now one would do a better job than me with my kids and I know Hashem knew what he was doing with these precious neshamas. I have a difficult job right now but I wouldn't trade it with anyone either. I wouldn't trust anyone else to love and fight for my kids the way I do, no matter what is looks or sounds like from the neighbor's house. Sigh.

amother

Mon, Mar 17 2014, 7:50 pm

(Op)New amother, I sent a hug to ure post bc I agree and I feel for u. Its surely not easy.
Again, my point wasn't to judge anybody at all but to raise awareness. And btw that's y I don't want to send her the letter... I think it'll only hurt her and not change much.

I will iyh try to keep in touch with her more so that at the least they know there's other caring ppl around!

granolamom

Mon, Mar 17 2014, 8:19 pm

imaima wrote:

Of course not. Because if she does, the truth will come out that not all kids can be disciplined by tucking in.

can I like this a million times?
because before I had kids I was the worlds best most loving most patient mom ever. I was plently judgemental too, of all those women so blessed with precious neshamalas and yelling at them! ha ha. I've eaten my share of humble pie.
you know why they say not to judge someone until you've walked in their shoes? because if you do, you will! and those blisters can hurt, let me tell you.

one more thing, as the child of screamers I can attest that it is a horrible way to grow up. I can also attest to the fact that I would have been no better off had well meaning, meddlesome neighbors come over at night to 'lovingly tuck me in'. maybe they could have invited me along on their chol hamoed trips. or out for pizza with their families on sat night. that wouldve helped me out a bit. an open child welfare case would've been the absolute worst thing for me. so, dear OP, I'm glad my parents didnt live next door to you! and if you currently live next door to me, I will send you a pair of earplugs in next years MM.

sunlight

Mon, Mar 17 2014, 9:26 pm

amother wrote:

I trimmed this greatly so it won't be nuisance to read.
I for one am not judging you at all. I accept that there are normal women that as mothers lose it and often but I'm not sure if some mothers cant do a better job not losing it so often. OP opened this (I believe) to raise awareness that if you are not doing the best you can to speak softly, then please try to for the sake of your kids. I don't believe she is judging you. No one can judge someone because they haven't walked a mile in anyone else's shoes. That said, I DO believe many times, a mother can call a school and get chesed girls to help her. A mother should not be a raggedy ann and have tons of children because society says so, and then not be able to handle it. A mother needs to care for herself as best as she can in her individual situation. Whatever works for you to make your house less chaotic, that's what you need to do. If you are already doing your best, than this post was not talking to you...

Hatzlacha. You sound like you're going through a hard time. Hugs!!

amother

Mon, Mar 17 2014, 9:32 pm

(Op) Thank u sunlight for saying all I couldn't say clearly!!
I just want to add that if u read all the posts ull realize that it wasnt my idea at all to call social services!!!! Was never an option for me. It was another posters idea...

zaq

Mon, Mar 17 2014, 9:46 pm

OP. if you really wanted to be helpful, you'd keep your words of wisdom to yourself and offer to babysit now and then. I wonder if you realize how incredibly condescending and superior your post sounds? You were an older sib and took care of them for many hours? Honey, being an older sibling is to being a parent as going down the playground slide is to skydiving--without a parachute. I'm offended and you're not even writing to me!

Yes, you tried to sound concerned, and caring, and gentle, and a lot of other wonderful things, but some things can't be faked. When you're being superior, it comes through no matter how carefully you craft your words. Lesson Number One is that unless you are a child-care or mental-health professional being consulted in a professional capacity, if you are not yet a parent, do not--EVER--give child-rearing advice to a parent. Doing so is a colossal chutzpa, and there is no way you can do this without giving offense.

zaq

Mon, Mar 17 2014, 9:53 pm

amother wrote:

Nopes I borrowed eggs from her and that was months ago

Now that you mention it, it's really slimy to tack a letter of criticism onto a thank-you note, kwim? Yes, I know you haven't sent the letter, and if you're as smart as you think you are, you never will. (BTW did you thank her for lending you the eggs yet?) That you even thought to do this makes my skin crawl. Start out by buttering up the woman, and then whammo! criticize her parenting with your so-superior knowledge born of your vast experience. Ugh. I need to speak to your mother--in the nicest way, solely out of concern for your social well-being, you understand-- about HER chinuch of YOU.

dr. pepper

Mon, Mar 17 2014, 10:24 pm

Sorry, I do not agree with you Zaq at all.

But then again, that's what so fascinating about writing. How two people can read the same thing and come away with opposite feeling and interpretations.

I think the OP means well and sincerely hurts for what she is witnessing based off of her upbringing.

Being that she does not have kids, sure, she can't fully fathom parenting.

But she was pretty clear that she was not discussing losing it once in a while (or even once or twice a day)-although please correct me if I'm wrong.

I agree, calling CPS would be a disaster at this point.

Is there a rav they are close to?

I am going through this now with a new neighbor. Share a wall. Thin wall. Horrific screaming. My son couldn't fall asleep one night because they were so loud.
I finally bit the bullet and called the Rebt. of our community to give a heads up and offer my help in whatever way she thinks I can help. She was aware of the situation and glad I was giving her updated info.

I would suggest getting to know her better and offering to help out in general. If you have the time and nature to do that; all the power to you Smile

Heaven knows I'd love you as a neighbor and I certainly don't define myself as dysfunctional and not managing as your describe yours; but we can all use an extra pair of hands.

Oh, and one more thing. Don't underestimate the power of davening for her. Hatzlacha!

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