Older single women having babies on their own, WDYT?

shabbatiscoming

Mon, Apr 07 2014, 8:30 am

Isramom8 wrote:

A biography about a gadol who was conceived with donor sperm would certainly stand out. They'd have to write a whole original first chapter, instead of copying, pasting and editing the standard yichus paragraphs. Study

I know you are joking about this, but truly, why do think it would even mention it? I dont. If I read such a story/article/book about a gadol hador and it started by saying that he was conceived from donor sperm, I think I would close the book and think very lowly of whoever wrote it.

saw50st8

Mon, Apr 07 2014, 9:01 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

I wouldn't. I think its important to publicize these things sometimes to show that even if its uncommon, its ok. Your beginnings aren't who you are. They are only a piece of where you came from.

When the "non-perfect" details are glossed over, you lose value for the actual history and it opens the doors for revisionism. Its actually a big problem with Artscroll.

JoyInTheMorning

Mon, Apr 07 2014, 9:08 am

Whether or not a gadol b'yisrael, or anyone else, is born of donor sperm should be inconsequential, about as interesting as his/her birth weight or the color of his/her eyes.

That said, I agree that including it in a few best-selling books would certainly remove the (inexplicable) stigma!

Mama Bear

Mon, Apr 07 2014, 9:09 am

I started a post and deleted it because it ends up coming off very snooty and discriminatory. If someone with more background and eloquence can explain, please chime in. There is definitely something to be said for how a person is conceived - that is why so many ppl hesitate greatly before going for IUI or IVF as it is *not* ideal. There is so much written about the holiness of a union which produces a child - why do you think it's ideal to be married, to be tahor, to have the right machashavos, etc.? Of course wwe're not all perfect. We try however. It's not a free-for-all religion where we can just have a baby with whomever we want however we want. There *are* halochos. But to *purposely* create a child with a non Jewish father? Not an ideal way to bring down a neshama. People who were created in niddah (such as BTs) or through intermarriage are products of unions beyond their control. But to do it on PURPOSE? Not ideal.

shabbatiscoming

Mon, Apr 07 2014, 9:14 am

Im sorry, but WHAAT? To tell, in a biography of someone, how they were conceived is disgusting. It is nobody's business. My point was, it was not written how rav finkel was conceived and it wont say that about anyone else either. ITS NOBODY'S BUSINESS.

Raisin

Mon, Apr 07 2014, 9:19 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

But, lots of unpleasant details about how people were conceived is included in the Torah. Avraham and Sarah, Leah and Rachel used surrogate mothers. Yehudah slept with what he thought was a harlot. David sent of a man to war so he could marry his wife. Lot slept with his daughters. And so on.

We might think it appropriate to censor stories, the Torah does not.

Anyway, saying whose someone biological father is (or isnt) is not the same as sharing the details of conception.

shabbatiscoming

Mon, Apr 07 2014, 9:19 am

Mama Bear wrote:

So many people? I dont know of anyone who thought about it long and hard weather or not to do an IUI or IVF, not at all. Mama Bear, maybe in the chassidish world, but not in the modern world. We just do whatever we have to do to have that loving child.

Tablepoetry

Mon, Apr 07 2014, 9:20 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

I don't quite agree here. This isn't 'how' someone was conceived, this is WHO conceived someone.

We're talking about who the biological parent is. Genes are a big issue.

I'm NOT NOT NOT saying that one should discriminate against those born of donor sperm. I AM saying that it is not an insignificant piece of information about someone, and I do think it deserves to be in a biography (IF it is public knowledge, IF the person hasn't indicated it's a secret).

Same with a child who was adopted. If s/he later became famous, I would expect a good biography to mention the fact they were adopted.

chaiz

Mon, Apr 07 2014, 9:24 am

Mama Bear wrote:

Yes, manner of conception impacts a person, when you like it or not. But honestly, to say that someone who is struggling with infertility and that is the best option will hesitate before doing IVF? I find that fascinating. I understand halachic issues. But if the rav is ok and is telling you how to do it properly, that is an issue and one will hesitate about doing it? Right now I am talking about a married couple keeping halacha, including Taharas Hamishpacha.

Rubber Ducky

Mon, Apr 07 2014, 9:24 am

saw50st8 wrote:

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Plenty of people come from lowly or questionable beginnings and become great -- just read Tanach.

If in a few generations we have a gadol who was born to a frum unmarried woman through donor sperm, how will that be written up in the official Artscroll bio? The contemporary drive to turn gedolim into tzaddikim-from-birth makes most of the frum bios practically unreadable as well as untrue, and does a great disservice to the rest of us trying to improve ourselves -- because somehow we didn't merit being tzaddikim-from-birth.

Happy18

Mon, Apr 07 2014, 9:25 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

I've tried to stay out of this, but I agree. The only thing that made us hesitate was what would happen if people found out and couldn't stop their yentaing about it. People may think long and hard about how they are going to pay for it, but if thats what it takes to have a baby it shouldn't be a long and hard decision.

Feel free to bash me for this, but I have a much bigger problem with couples who know they are not a genetic match who get married knowing they will need IVF with PGD to have a healthy child or couples who want to use it to have a specific gender, than an older single whose only chance of having a child is using a donor.

The Torah makes it clear repeatedly that how a person was conceived does not determine who they will be, for us to judge a person based on conception seems contradictory.

imaima

Mon, Apr 07 2014, 9:42 am

Mama Bear wrote:

But a frum single woman doing IVF is not creating a child in niddah or into an intermarriage. She can go to mikveh before IVF. And she is not conceiving a child through sin.

PinkFridge

Mon, Apr 07 2014, 10:29 am

DrMom wrote:

I think posters who select Tweety Bird as their avatar are not likely to be very intelligent. I can't explain why, I just do.

I don't see why this was reported, then again I have two pages to go. But I have to say, having got to know you, after the initial reaction I really don't think you're likely to fly off the handle.

PinkFridge

Mon, Apr 07 2014, 10:31 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Here, you ca read about his childhood: http://www.ou.org/jewish_actio.....l-zl/ and see where he started in life.

Anyone else use Mrs. Finkel's recipes?
I didn't read the link but read the biography and enough to be scratching my head big time over singling out Rav Nosson Tzvi zt"l as the prototype of a non-typical background for gadol hador.
How about a Rosh Yeshiva I know who was captain of his yeshiva's basketball team. Or the story of the three famous chashuv brothers-in-law singing carols in harmony as they all went to public school, AFAIK.
This whole sidebar is a very strange straw man.

Last edited by PinkFridge on Mon, Apr 07 2014, 10:37 am; edited 1 time in total

happybeingamom

Mon, Apr 07 2014, 10:34 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Anyone else use Mrs. Finkel's recipes?

I do!

shabbatiscoming

Mon, Apr 07 2014, 10:45 am

PinkFridge wrote:

I just gave Rav Finkel beacuse I knew that he came from an MO background. I was just showing that not every ggreat rabbi, in the charedi community, dont always come from the background that you think. That was all. I dont know about too many charedi rabbanim, this one I had heard.

PinkFridge

Mon, Apr 07 2014, 10:48 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Sorry. I should have traced it back to see the source.
But while I'm on a roll, here's some trivia: name the gadol hador who, at 15, one might have presumed to have a brilliant career in academia as a mathematician ahead of him.....

Time's up: Rav Aharon Kotler, zt"l.
(Then again, Rav Nosson Tzvi is the most contemporary so I guess I can see how that fit the point you wanted to make.)

marina

Mon, Apr 07 2014, 11:12 am

Mama Bear wrote:

When you look at a group of people, Mama Bear, can you tell who was conceived how? Whether their parents had the right machshavos? Whose parents didn't keep TH quite perfectly? I can't. How does it matter in real life?

Dolly Welsh

Mon, Apr 07 2014, 12:03 pm

Tablepoetry wrote:

After skimming the last few pages, a few random thoughts:

1) It is extremely hard to adopt a baby in most western countries. There are waiting periods of years and years for MARRIED couples. The chance of a single person being able to adopt are almost nil. This is also true for many non-western countries, which have lately become a lot stricter in their guidelines (and those countries carry many risks in their adoptions).

2) Marriage is tough enough as is. I would never advocate marrying someone just because he is a half way decent, ignoring differences in hashkafa, culture, education. Yes, one can gloss over that when you don't have children yet. One can try, as Dolly said, to live with a 'hashkafa' that's not innate to you.
BUT, once you have kids, you (general you) are going to want to raise those kids in the way you see most fit. You might find yourself having viscious fights with the man you married - the nice decent guy - because you and he believe in diametrically opposed life views. For example, you could ignore his 'Archie Bunker' old fashionedness when you were desperate for a kid; but now, you refuse to raise your child with even a hint of racism in the air. Or you didn't mind having a TV at home when it was just the two of you; now, you refuse to 'pollute' your child.....could be anything.

People can live with all kinds of differences -- TILL there are kids. Part of the desire of wanting to raise kids is the yearning to leave an imprint of your beliefs on the world. Nobody wants to raise a kid with values s/he is opposed to.

3) Somewhere a couple of pages back, Dolly said something to the effect that shopping therapy is lovely (ok, I agree) and that it can remedy the ideological differences between husband and wife. Strongly disagree. Shopping is a bandaid. Such a marriage will soon be in deep trouble.

Oh yes, people clean their acts up a lot when the first baby arrives. I have personally witnessed this. (I come from the secular world.) And yes, there may indeed be some tussle. That's life. But it is not impossible to compromise, if the basic values are aligned.

A husband might agree to only watch TV with headphones, when the kid(s) are asleep. Or he might lay down the law to them about WHAT could be watched. Or he might see things on TV in a different way now that is kids are listening; his ear becomes sensitive.

One is assuming there is a basic common goal of raising a nice child, as that term is understood between the people. In fact it would be good for the people to discuss, in very blunt language, when they date, what kind of people they want their kids to be.

If you can live in peace with a man before children, your scuffles with him about how to raise the children will probably not be too horrible. You have the same basic values, or you wouldn't have lived with him in peace before. Annoying, troublesome scuffles, yes, but no deep differences about the children's honesty, manners, education, important stuff like that.

If Archie is too crude for you, fine, no Archie. That can be achieved. Men can also compromise! It isn't always us who does the compromising! His world is going to be centered on the baby, too. Archie will become less important to him. He can get his occasional dose of Archie's rough humor late at night with headphones, maybe when you are asleep. People don't have to like all the exact same things, as long as they stay out of each other's hair.

The idea is for you to be impressive enough to him, as a wise and valuable person, so that the man respects your judgment, and says yes to your demands about the tone of the house. (He has to go along with you, at least enough, if not always. Some men do, some don't. One does want to watch out for stubbornness when dating.)

He picked you as their mother, after all. He can't then decide you're an idiot. He knows the importance of a mother. He has one himself.

I am NOT going to say shopping therapy always guarantees being impressive enough.

But some of them are awfully visual, stupid as that may seem to us sometimes. In general you want to have power in a marriage. There are lots of angles to that, not just shopping therapy. (And, you have to let him have some, too, obviously.)

I will re-state that there DOES have to be basic agreement about what do we want, what is important, what is virtue, what is beautiful, what is disgusting, what is dangerous, why do we live at all, for a marriage to work.

I think agreement about the furnishing of the home is super important and I recommend discussion of that or just observing what he thinks in other ways; window shopping or whatever.

I think agreement about money is super important.

I think agreement about deep, basic religious attitudes is super important. It might be ok to have nusach differences but not deep attitudinal ones.

freidasima

Mon, Apr 07 2014, 3:56 pm

Who gives a rat's a$$ who becomes or doesn't become a charedi godol? Why in the world would anyone care? I didn't have kids for them to become "gedolim" either chareidi or MO. I had kids because I wanted to have kids and I wanted them to grow up and be happy and do good things for themselves and their families and the world in general including the Jewish world. I never thought of their becoming a Godol, a Koton or anything else.

So who cares if a child who is adopted, IVF'd , sperm donored or whatever becomes this, that or the third thing? Why is it even relevant to the conversation?

How bizarre.