Spinoff: Putting daughter in Public school

granolamom

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 9:44 am

saw50st8 wrote:

Here are some of my thoughts.

1) Not everyone really prioritizes tuition money. If they did, they would be willing to first pay their tuition bill and then worry about other bills. For all the talk of "bitachon" and "emunah" it doesn't seem to pan out and tuition is the last bill many people prioritize for. Just read the threads here about luxuries people talk about as necessities (like cleaning help).

2) People take advantage of the scholarship situation. In the generations past, people didn't have to fill out long questionnaires detailing their budget. There was enough money to help out families in need, not families in want.

3) Tuition costs have skyrocketed relative to salary. This is a huge issue, especially in my area where most of the elementary schools cost $15-18,000 (with a great education). You can't expect everyone to earn $200,000 to send their kids to yeshiva. Its just not possible. If you live in Lakewood with cheap tuition, 8 kids in yeshiva at $6,000 is $48,000 in after tax money. So maybe you only need $150,000? Anyway, expecting anything in the 6 figures is crazy when you consider the average american household income.

4) Perhaps the "yeshiva for all" model isn't sustainable as a general community. Perhaps utilizing public school options in younger grades would alleviate a huge burden on the community. If "everyone" did it, socialization would be less of an issue since your kids can have a large amount of orthodox children in their class. Yes, in generations past public school was a problem for many kids, but fixing the problems could be a much better option (my mother went to PS, my uncle to yeshiva - both are observant today).

you know, I take offense to number one on your list. I do prioritize tuition bills. I do have some cleaning help, which I've recently reduced(and honestly getting rid of my help would not even cover half of one tuition), and we do not live large. we earn, by american standards, a nice living. and the tuition is killing us. for all of my dh's hard work, and my scrimping, we should be able to have a few nice vacations and more help so that I can occasionally just enjoy my family. even with homeschooling two of my kids, we can barely afford tuition for the rest of them. I am sure (and I know firsthand) that some people scam the system, etc. but at some point I joined the ranks of those who do not feel that yeshiva tuition should be my number one expense. and how can a family possibly prioritize tuition over mortagage, food, health care, retirement savings? it happens to be that way and I am growing resentful. its strange because a few years ago I would have said it the same way you did, but that was before we entered the frightening world of high school tuitions. so if you havent walked in the shoes, y'know, dont judge.

granolamom

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 9:49 am

amother wrote:

Firstly: Yeshiva ed and tuition ARE wants, not needs; the idea of first paying those bills and then making sure your family has food, a roof, medical care, and heat is preposterous. There are other ways to Jewishly educate children (not the least of which is homeschooling; the original Torah form of chinuch). Second: sending your kids to schools you hate (because of the Hashkafah, peer pressure, educational standard, etc) is probably not going to help your cause that much either. It's not just enough for them to learn Torah; they have to get that learning Torah is worthwhile and valuable if you want the message to stick long term. I know it's hard, but let's not play the victim. Yes, Yeshiva tuition is prohibitively exorbitant. Yes, the education is often substandard. But there really are alternatives, if you have the courage to explore them. Consider stepping outside your Hashkafic comfort zone, or joining a home school group. Try not to feel trapped by where you started.

I wish you had posted under your real name so I could 'like' you personally

happybeingamom

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 9:53 am

Sadly the community at large does not support elementary and high schools.

No Jewish child should be left out of a Jewish school for financial reasons.

We need to make sure that every Jewish child has the ability to go to a frum school. If that means we have less tzedoka for other worthy causes so be it. This is our future.

Parents alone can't fund the schools it doesn't work and how sad is it that parents chooses to have smaller families because they can't afford tuition. Think of all those neshamos that could have been born but are not.

I am not a good writer but I would love to send the facts of the original thread to the major orthodox organization and say we must do something about this tragedy.

The majority of families can't afford the tuition and then the mandatory year in Israel jacks it up even more. Education for all our children has to become the responsibility of the community.

saw50st8

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 9:56 am

granolamom wrote:

If you don't want to prioritize it, that's fine. That's up to you. However, many people make choices over and over again that limit their ability to pay full tuition. A yeshiva education does not have to be your primary goal. I think this system is actually pretty terrible - we "force" everyone to send their kids to yeshiva and require so much stress at the expense of everyone else. I work full time ONLY to cover my commuting costs and tuition/daycare. Its hard and I would prefer to just enjoy my family, but this is what I have chosen. We also chose the cheap school in town because it was affordable (we are very happy there at the moment).

The question is - are you willing to take tzedaka to buy a house or increase your retirement savings? The problem is, most people view scholarships as a "discount" and not "tzedaka" so they don't view it as such. It is tzedaka. Its very hard to pay full tuition.

No, my kids are not up to high school. I will have 3 in high school at the same time and I am not sure if they can attend yeshivot at that time. I don't have $75,000 in after tax money to spend on tuition.

granolamom

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 10:02 am

saw50st8 wrote:

Amother, I agree. Yeshiva tuition is a want. But when someone says that yeshiva is a must and we have bitachon in paying are bills, but they pay tuition last, it makes me think they are insincere. Its ok to say "I think its important, but not important enough to give up my cleaning help" but own that opinion and don't pretend a yeshiva education is the number one priority for you. Its not. If its that important to you, then figure out how to pay for it.

what kind of cleaning help are you talking about? anything less than full time help is a drop in the bucket compared to tuition costs anyway. really, $65 a week so a woman can know that she has help preparing for shabbos will not make a difference in affording an annual tution bill of $75,000 (9th gr = 24,000, three elem = 45,000, preschool =8,000). the people I know with live-in or full time help, are not the people claiming to struggle with tuition. the stay at home moms I mean.
women who work full time and have small children or kids coming home on busses before they arrive home from work need to have someone in the house for the kids anyway. so they cant get rid of their help unless they get rid of their jobs. which they probably need to afford tuition. but I cannot imagine working to pay half of it to the help and the other half to the school. people get burned out real quick that way.
and where do you draw the line? should we also give up our manicures? our second pair of shoes? our second wig that we wear while the first is being washed? should we not eat meat during the week? live in smaller homes? get rid of our internet service? bathe only once weekly to cut down on the water bill? where does it end? how can I ever splurge on a cup of coffee with a friend if tuition is my priority? that $5 should go to the tuition fund.. if you cut out every single excess you probably do save enough to pay more to the schools but that is a rough way to live. even if you do prioritize yeshiva (no one would say they prioritize shiny nails over torah, but there is nothing wrong with taking care of our physical needs and well being too). said by someone who has had exactly three manicures in the last year. $30 taken from my tuition fund, I guess. but we're vegetarian during the week so I guess I'm still coming out ahead.

granolamom

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 10:10 am

saw50st8 wrote:

here's the thing, I do prioritize it. I am not taking tzedaka or tuition assistance to do any of that. but its getting harder and harder every year. we talk about hishtadlus, but what about saving for the future, is that not part of our hishtadlus? I'm no longer sure that the stress and lifestyle required by tuition costs is best for the children. I'm no longer sure which 'should be' prioritized, and of course that will look different for different people.
as I get older, I am meeting more and more people who are opting out of the yeshiva model because the costs are too high. I think the reason people try to 'have their cake and eat it too' (which I think is what you mean when you talk about the cleaning help?) is because those who pull out of yeshiva are so harshly judged by society.
and not every town has a cheap school, ours has one, and my high school dd would not have gotten in there, its very different hashkafically than she is, they never would've accepted her and she would not have thrived there.

Jewishmom8

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 10:11 am

granolamom wrote:

yup, we do that.

btw I know people who moved to israel for that reason.
I pay 700 shekel a year for my girls to go to school

nylon

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 10:12 am

happybeingamom wrote:

I have to add I would like to see Torah U'Mesorah make a Home school program. Home schooling is a good alternative to the tuition crisis. If it would have support from the establishment it could become a viable option.

I don't think homeschooling is the cure-all. Many people don't want to do it, or aren't suited for it. Many kids do better in a group environment.

Even financially, it's not simple. You need to calculate saved tuition versus forgone income. If you need to forgo income that is greater than your share of tuition, you have saved nothing. That doesn't even allow for lifelong impact on income if someone changes jobs or quits to enable homeschooling.

The UMC bracket that is the most affected by tuition is also the one that will lose out financially by homeschooling.

MaBelleVie

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 10:26 am

There are locations where parents have organized small groups of students with hired teachers etc. The costs are nothing compared to the average tuition, and it's a very nice compromise for parents who can't homeschool on their own.

Someone mentioned to me recently that she was wondering if there was a need for a bare bones yeshiva. Cut all of the extras that the school provides for enrichment purposes or whatever, without compromising on any legal requirements or educational standards- and have a low tuition to match.

saw50st8

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 10:27 am

granolamom wrote:

I agree that sometimes prioritizing will not get you to the finish line. But if you add up all the splurges you are talking about (I don't consider running water a luxury), they add up to real money. Even if every family "only" gave $1,000, that ends up translating to a lot of money that the school doesn't have to raise. Its also cumulative - the less people pay, the more tuition rises and the more people who are stretched to the limit.

Yes, I think its demoralizing. Almost every day when I wake up at 4:30 to go to my job, I wonder if my kids wouldn't be better off homeschooled or in public school. As I said, my entire salary goes towards tuition and child care (and it will go fully to tuition once they are in school). Would I prefer to quit my job? Heck yeah! But we've chosen to send our kids to yeshiva and its my job to figure out how to pay for it.

amother

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 10:41 am

If the parents are being nickeled and dimed for tuition, giving up every single thing that can be construed as luxury, then the same should be expected from the schools.

A school I know (a very large one) sent out a fundraising brochure boasting that they had hired a financial expert who helped them save $1 million a year, presumably by finding cheaper options for things they were already doing, minimizing interest etc.

I was NOT impressed. I was horrified! Do you know how the parents suffered to make that MILLION DOLLARS in school tuitions, and they weren't responsible enough to do any kind of audit until this year?

Granted their budget is in the high millions, but don't they CARE that their tuition is as high as it is, with the parents as pressed as they are, and their blood money is being WASTED?

When the schools demonstrate some Mesiras Nefesh, they then have the right to expect it from the parents.

nylon

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 10:41 am

I don't think the "extras" are adding up to thousands per year. The reason RW schools are cheaper is that they pay their teachers less. And what people think of as "extras" are typically art, music, and physical education... which aren't that extra, and don't cost that much. Only large yeshivot hire these positions full time. Smaller schools hire a part timer with no benefits. I've known people who taught APs in multi ple yeshivot at the same time. None of them needed her for a FT position.

You still need a building. You still need to furnish and equip it and keep the lights on. If your school is small, you might be able to rent space, but not a school of any real size. You need so many teachers per student. You need insurance on the building. You need health insurance for the employees. You need an office. If you are teaching high school, you need to provide laboratory science. You can argue about whether you "need" APs but again, if you want the students to go to selective (not even Ivy, just selective) colleges, they do, though perhaps dual enrollment with a local community college could be worked out for some subjects (not necessarily cheaper). There's already a shortage of MO people who are willing to become teachers because they cannot afford to live on the pay.

Is there fat to cut in many yeshivot? Do some spend their money on flashy new buildings? Yes. Is cutting that going to reduce tuition to $5K a year? I don't think so.

Hiring teachers and organizing co-ops is a more organized form of homeschooling. It may work for some families, but can't necessarily be scaled upward. Financially, the best arrangement would be to provide a religious co-op. The problem is that the public school day doesn't allow for it comfortably (and the kids may come to resent being able to participate in the same activities as their classmates) and kids may treat it as less important because it isn't 'real school' (as many public school Hebrew school students already do).

SRS

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 10:47 am

happybeingamom wrote:

Sadly the community at large does not support elementary and high schools.

I completely disagree. While some people take tzedakah for their nightly fleishig dinners, manicures, and cleaning help, the community, and while other people have households without a working a parent, just look at the number of families with two working parents, look at the number of families that have gone into debt to send their kids to K-12, look at the number of families that don't have savings, look at the way families make decisions as to career, working hours, and 2nd and 3rd gigs and ventures to make it happen.

I think we prioritize too much and if I could restructure it all, boy would I! But it is practically a blood libel to accuse a community that builds its life around education and watches parents and grandparents work like dogs to make it happen of not prioritizing. .. although certain we could do a lot better in our efficiency and efforts.

Sanguine

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 10:57 am

granolamom wrote:

and where do you draw the line? should we also give up our manicures? our second pair of shoes? our second wig that we wear while the first is being washed? should we not eat meat during the week? live in smaller homes? get rid of our internet service? bathe only once weekly to cut down on the water bill? where does it end? how can I ever splurge on a cup of coffee with a friend if tuition is my priority? that $5 should go to the tuition fund.. if you cut out every single excess you probably do save enough to pay more to the schools but that is a rough way to live. even if you do prioritize yeshiva (no one would say they prioritize shiny nails over torah, but there is nothing wrong with taking care of our physical needs and well being too). said by someone who has had exactly three manicures in the last year. $30 taken from my tuition fund, I guess. but we're vegetarian during the week so I guess I'm still coming out ahead.

This is eye-opening for me. In Israel Jweish education is a priority. It's free from the government. But nothing is really free. All the things that you couldn't imagine living without, most people do live without (I underlined all the things I live without). I guess our kid's chinuch is really our priority since we do go without all the things you mentioned but no child grows up without a Jewish (religious too) education in Israel

happybeingamom

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 11:01 am

SRS wrote:

I am not talking about the parents. I am talking about the community

SRS

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 11:09 am

happybeingamom wrote:

I am not talking about the parents. I am talking about the community

One would need to commission a study, but I bet that if you went through your local eruv listing and marked every single family with a child in day school, you would already have the majority of families. If you then marked every single grandparent that has either paid for their children's higher education so they could make a living to support this lifestyle, provides significant hours of free babysitting or carpooling to make it happen, or has provided post-college financial support including downpayments, you would probably have marked up most the listing.

People are most certainly supporting schooling in some way. It is a different discussion if the support is efficient. But I can guarantee you that even non-tuition paying people are pitching in to the till in some way.

SRS

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 11:12 am

I would add that "the community" is mostly the parents. The idea that parents should not have to carry the burden is nice in theory. But with average family sizes of 4.5, most people are parents. Problem is that those paying their way and more are a shrinking bunch and donors cannot be relied on to pick up the tab at this point.

Remember that many years ago there were still non-Orthodox people that had nostalgia for Orthodoxy and yeshiva education. That part of "the community" is basically gone, either via assimilation into general society or via assimilation into Orthodox society (I.e. the kids are frum) and are struggling along with the rest of of.

Also, many years ago, family sizes were smaller. Now families are larger and the average ago of the community is younger.