Spinoff: Putting daughter in Public school

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Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling

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saw50st8

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 11:19 am

amother wrote:

If the parents are being nickeled and dimed for tuition, giving up every single thing that can be construed as luxury, then the same should be expected from the schools.

A school I know (a very large one) sent out a fundraising brochure boasting that they had hired a financial expert who helped them save $1 million a year, presumably by finding cheaper options for things they were already doing, minimizing interest etc.

I was NOT impressed. I was horrified! Do you know how the parents suffered to make that MILLION DOLLARS in school tuitions, and they weren't responsible enough to do any kind of audit until this year?

Granted their budget is in the high millions, but don't they CARE that their tuition is as high as it is, with the parents as pressed as they are, and their blood money is being WASTED?

When the schools demonstrate some Mesiras Nefesh, they then have the right to expect it from the parents.

I agree with you. Both sides can do better. However, many schools are pandering to the requests of the parents - I wouldn't want my child in class with 49 other students!

ectomorph

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 11:19 am

Sanguine wrote:

This is eye-opening for me. In Israel Jweish education is a priority. It's free from the government. But nothing is really free. All the things that you couldn't imagine living without, most people do live without (I underlined all the things I live without). I guess our kid's chinuch is really our priority since we do go without all the things you mentioned but no child grows up without a Jewish (religious too) education in Israel

I'm confused... is it free or not free, and how does it work in Israel that tuition is so cheap? Maybe we can do some of these things in America?

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 11:21 am

Simply put, Israel is a Jewish state... hence the public schools are Jewish.

Jewishmom8

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 11:24 am

I send to chinuch atzmai beis yaakov.
its basically public school beis yaakov. its a great school and its CHEAP

ectomorph

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 11:28 am

kb wrote:

Simply put, Israel is a Jewish state... hence the public schools are Jewish.

Yes but it sounds like even in the private chareidi schools it is cheaper.

An amother above said she pays 700 shekel a year for several kids, that's a couple hundred per kid. That's crazy.

Jewishmom8

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 11:30 am

ectomorph wrote:

Yes but it sounds like even in the private chareidi schools it is cheaper.

An amother above said she pays 700 shekel a year for several kids, that's a couple hundred per kid. That's crazy.

I pay 700 per girl
my boys is more. about $100 a month.

SRS

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 11:30 am

ectomorph wrote:

I'm confused... is it free or not free, and how does it work in Israel that tuition is so cheap? Maybe we can do some of these things in America?

Uh, basically the same way public schooling works in the US. There is nothing to import overseas, although if we could export a lot of the meshulachim that are taking funds that could be supporting schools here, we'd be far ahead. But try to sell that to anything but renegade tzedakah givers.

morah

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 11:40 am

ectomorph wrote:

Yes but it sounds like even in the private chareidi schools it is cheaper.

An amother above said she pays 700 shekel a year for several kids, that's a couple hundred per kid. That's crazy.

Israel has no separation of church and state so all schools get significant gov funding. This is true to an extent in Canada and some European countries, where the crisis is not nearly at the level it is here. Not going to happen in the US, it has been tried and failed too many times to count. Our best bet is to make it a communal effort, like public schools. Everyone pays for public schools through their taxes, nevermind how many kids, even if none and never planning on it, even if their kids graduated 30 years ago, even if you choose to avail yourself of private or parochial school. This is what we need in the frum community. Cost is spread over everyone, not just those currently in the system.

ectomorph

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 11:41 am

Jewishmom8 wrote:

I pay 700 per girl
my boys is more. about $100 a month.

OK, still. Is the government sponsoring this? Are the schools cheaper? Is this the same percentage of salary as we pay in the US?

I'm not speaking about Jewish public schools in Israel... that's replicable as charter schools.

nylon

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 11:47 am

AIUI, many DL yeshivot and ulpanot do charge a decent tuition, especially the prestigious ones. It is less than American tuition, but it is still paid on an Israeli salary. There are also semi private schools. "Mamlachti dati" = state religious. The state pays just like for regular public school. Bais Yaakov is also funded. I am not so familiar with the chareidi boys' schools but I think they do not receive the same funding because they don't teach the same subjects.

Non-Orthodox people are a nonstarter as a fundraising source. To be blunt: their kids are not wanted in frum schools, for the most part. Unless they're a kiruv case. We've marketed yeshivot as not for them. Few of them will donate out of a sense of nostalgia or obligation.

Sanguine

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 12:17 pm

the cost of Yeshiva HS and Ulpana are nowhere near American even when you take our lower salaries into account. My Yeshiva HS is a little $2,000 for the year (no meals) and the Ulpana is cheaper. My son learns till 6 PM everyday (starts with Minyan at 7:45). To be called a Yeshiva you have to have at least 16 hours of Gemara a week. They cover the entire secular curriculum too. Though they also have Bogruts in Gemara and Toshba. There is Public religious High school too but most kids go to the Yeshivot and Ulpanot. I've never heard of anyone not going to a Yeshiva HS because of price (they give subsidies if you ask). I have heard of people having a problem going to dorm HSs though there are some great public subsidies if you qualify

amother

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 12:25 pm

amother wrote:

Pretty much every MO high school is like that.

More to the right? In the NYC area, schools like MTA, Central, TABC, Mayanot

A lot more to the right? Yeshivas Ohavei Torah

I was looking into MTA and TABC. I was told by multiple people these schools "ruin" the boys. Can someone please tell me what they mean by "ruin"? I hear this term over and over.I honestly don't understand. Do they mean they will not want to sit and learn or do they mean they will become something worse? I obviously don't want my children ruined.

amother

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 12:34 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

There are locations where parents have organized small groups of students with hired teachers etc. The costs are nothing compared to the average tuition, and it's a very nice compromise for parents who can't homeschool on their own.

Someone mentioned to me recently that she was wondering if there was a need for a bare bones yeshiva. Cut all of the extras that the school provides for enrichment purposes or whatever, without compromising on any legal requirements or educational standards- and have a low tuition to match.

Homeschooling doesn't work where I live. The home schooling families are not considered on par worth the families that send to organized schools. The family's standing is to a certain extent determined by where the kids go to school.

All of the schools that are main stream are bare bones already. The high cost is due to paying the tuitions for those that can't or won't pay. My son goes to school with cinder block walls. The school has no extras at all.

amother

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 12:39 pm

amother wrote:

I cannot imagine what it means to "ruin" a child. Why not ask what it means? Certainly the boys we know who go to those schools appear to be normal, respectful teens.

amother

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 1:02 pm

amother wrote:

Every school is going to have a few disgruntled customers. My husband went to MTA and he is far from "ruined", nor are any of his high school friends that I know. I do know my husband had this one awful teacher while he was there but don't we all have one that we remember?

MaBelleVie

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 1:19 pm

amother wrote:

I wasn't actually recommending a homeschooling coop to you. It's obvious that you live in a very rigid community where anything moderately out of the box is sacrilege. I can't imagine living in that kind of stifling world and raising happy children, but I understand that it was your choice.

How much is tuition at your son's school?

marina

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 1:48 pm

Am I the only one who knows quite a few very frum kids who go to public school?

Am I the only one who thinks it depends on the family and the school district and the home?

Am I the only one who thinks that blatant OMG YOU ARE SENDING YOUR CHILD TO PUBLIC SCHOOL SHE WILL MARRY A GENTILE AND HER CHILDREN WILL BE LOST TO KLAL YISROEL is a little too much?

amother

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 1:49 pm

special ed. Many frum kids, including my child, go to public school b/c the orthodox schools refuse to or cannot handle their needs.

amother

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 1:49 pm

granolamom wrote:

what kind of cleaning help are you talking about? anything less than full time help is a drop in the bucket compared to tuition costs anyway. really, $65 a week so a woman can know that she has help preparing for shabbos will not make a difference in affording an annual tution bill of $75,000 (9th gr = 24,000, three elem = 45,000, preschool =8,000). the people I know with live-in or full time help, are not the people claiming to struggle with tuition. the stay at home moms I mean.
women who work full time and have small children or kids coming home on busses before they arrive home from work need to have someone in the house for the kids anyway. so they cant get rid of their help unless they get rid of their jobs. which they probably need to afford tuition. but I cannot imagine working to pay half of it to the help and the other half to the school. people get burned out real quick that way.
and where do you draw the line? should we also give up our manicures? our second pair of shoes? our second wig that we wear while the first is being washed? should we not eat meat during the week? live in smaller homes? get rid of our internet service? bathe only once weekly to cut down on the water bill? where does it end? how can I ever splurge on a cup of coffee with a friend if tuition is my priority? that $5 should go to the tuition fund.. if you cut out every single excess you probably do save enough to pay more to the schools but that is a rough way to live. even if you do prioritize yeshiva (no one would say they prioritize shiny nails over torah, but there is nothing wrong with taking care of our physical needs and well being too). said by someone who has had exactly three manicures in the last year. $30 taken from my tuition fund, I guess. but we're vegetarian during the week so I guess I'm still coming out ahead.

65 a week, huh. I get some cleaning help a few times a year. $70 for 2 people for 2 hours total. A little more for Pesach. Yeah, this is a lot per hour but when you only get help a few times a year you can't get into the 10 an hour schedule.
What manicures?
OK, shoes are a weakness. But mine aren't exactly Loubatins. More like matronly type cheap on Amazon.
I have sheitels. I don't need them for work so I wear berets. I usually just wear my sheitel on Shabbos, maybe for events. One sheitel is 13 years old, revived a few years ago with a great haircut, my newer one was 200 from our local used sheitel lady. That was a major splurge for me.
We eat simply. I can't say we don't eat meat but we don't exactly do shnitzel on weekday. More like schnitzel stretched into chicken stir fry or the like.
You're right, where does it end. A very occasional $5 cup of coffee is one thing. But I mean like a few x a year, not a few x a month. It's not just that it adds up but it's a lifestyle choice and statement.
We have got tuition assistance over the years. In the thousands. If we can ever pay it back I'll be grateful. I'm grateful for the community for deciding we were a good investment and the Federation and local donors for giving to the school. We've always been treated with great dignity but the school knows us and knows that we don't abuse their trust. I don't know what we would do if we and the school didn't have this great relationship and mega hugs to everyone who is stuck in such a hard place.

Dolly Welsh

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 1:59 pm

imasinger wrote:

Amother above me, you said it beautifully.

I know there are at least a few schools in the world that offer a good education in both LK and secular subjects, but they are hard to find and often not around the corner.

My solution is to supplement at home in every way I can, and to try to be a voice and a vote for school to improve in their areas of weakness. But there are no simple answers anywhere.

This, bolded.

The iron law is you will get the kids you make at home. Just as a hospital can't make you healthy, it can only support your efforts to be healthy, no institution can make you educated.

What you insist your kids think, and learn, and value, at home is who they are going to be. It's not like sending a coat to the dry-cleaners, where you provide the coat, they do what they are set up to do, you pay them, and the results are standard and acceptable. No.

A teacher teaches to the mean, the average. Most kids are there, and the outliers must be helped at home. The teacher cannot hold up the class for a small handful of outliers, whether gifted or slow. No, that's on the parents.

It's always on the parents.

Them personally, to inspire and teach, and to procure others to instruct, and to "leave it lying around" which means a print-rich environment which teaches silently while the kid is chewing his breakfast. Posters on the wall, piles of interesting but unmentioned materials which will catch his eye, and a family rule of Letting Your Sibling Alone While He/She is Reading or Thinking. A corner designated for that, where it is the family rule you don't bother the person in that particular corner.

Homeschooling techniques are useful for this, but this applies to kids in school, the best school and the worst school or no school or a school with purple polka dots. Any school. The school is not magic. You have to do it. Er, both of you. Hubby cannot be too busy.

So there are four actors: the two parents, other teaching people whether hired or relatives, and the physical environment. Four. Count them.

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