Spinoff: Putting daughter in Public school

Jewishmom8

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 2:01 pm

marina wrote:

Am I the only one who knows quite a few very frum kids who go to public school?

Am I the only one who thinks it depends on the family and the school district and the home?

Am I the only one who thinks that blatant OMG YOU ARE SENDING YOUR CHILD TO PUBLIC SCHOOL SHE WILL MARRY A GENTILE AND HER CHILDREN WILL BE LOST TO KLAL YISROEL is a little too much?

I dont think your the only one but I think your wrong to be chilled out about something like that. Wink

Dolly Welsh

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 2:12 pm

That does NOT mean it doesn't matter what school a child goes to. It matters very much what school a child goes to. But it's not the final factor. The home is the final factor.

Of course people want their kids in the best school for them, and yes, that can be a life-changer.

The outcome is a complicated mixture of the school, the neighborhood and the parents, but the parents trump all.

Yes, money is better spent on school donations than on luxuries. Luxuries that go beyond what is pleasant and normal for family enjoyment and family unity. Whatever that means; what is necessary and proper is in the eye of the beholder.

We are used to being a numerically few people, but there is a minimum number of educated folks we have to have to keep going. There are only one and a half million Torah observant, full blown orthodox, frum, Jews in the world. Cruise money, or handbag money that is instead given to a yeshivah, to subsidize scholarships, is keeping the culture that one likes a going concern, instead of a dead one. That's a good idea. Nobody wants to be lonely. Make sure there are others like you. Carry a nice black handbag that goes with everything. One. Vacation off-season.

amother

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 3:12 pm

amother wrote:

I cannot imagine what it means to "ruin" a child. Why not ask what it means? Certainly the boys we know who go to those schools appear to be normal, respectful teens.

Of course I asked. I can't get a reasonable answer. I have heard the following: they talk to girls; they wear colored yamakahs; they dress like g@ys; they wear colored shirts; they don't have peyos; they smoke pot; your son won't be frum; and they don't wear hats.

I get these answers from professionals also.

sequoia

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 3:17 pm

amother wrote:

Ok. So what?

If your hashkafa is not the same as that of these "professionals," who cares what they say?

Yes, boys in more modern schools wear colored shirts or even t-shirts. Is that a big deal for YOU?

amother

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 3:19 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

I wasn't actually recommending a homeschooling coop to you. It's obvious that you live in a very rigid community where anything moderately out of the box is sacrilege. I can't imagine living in that kind of stifling world and raising happy children, but I understand that it was your choice.

How much is tuition at your son's school?

Ironically my kids are very happy. They don't know any other way and are having an ideal childhood.

I am not exactly sure about tuition. I think around $10,000.

amother

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 3:28 pm

sequoia wrote:

It is more important if it is right for my son. I could care less what color shirt the teacher wears as long as he could teach and knows his material. I want my son to have a good education.

The colored shirt is a symbol of what? Talking to girls? Pot smoking? TV watching? Working for a living? Going to graduate school? Cutting off peyos?

I am trying to get a handle on this. It seems somehow the clothes and the mixing of the genders are intertwined and "ruin" the boys. Keeping the boys in white shirts is teaching them to learn for their life and go into chinuch?

amother

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 3:49 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

Did you ask anyone you personally respect?

Sure I have. I asked my lawyer, my accountant, my uncle who is a rebbe, my cousin who is a teacher, my neighbor who is a Dr. I asked people who I thought would support this decision. I didn't ask random strangers, nor did I ask people in kollel. I asked people who work for a living.

DH asked our Rabbi who was predictably against this.

I can't find one person IRL who supports this decision including educators who teach at two of the schools who I know personally. Except for one Rebbe all wear white shirts and hats.

It seems there are colored shirt cooties which others understand but I don't which contaminates the boys and "ruins" them. I am missing something obvious.

MaBelleVie

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 3:57 pm

You have raised your son in an environment in which all that plus more is completely unacceptable, wrong, forbidden. Now you want to place him in an environment that embraces all of that warmly. Well, that would be confusing and disorienting to any young teen, even more so to one who is expected to straddle both worlds. You can't be a happy member of both. When two worldviews are diametrically opposed they will not mesh.

amother

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 3:58 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

They're happy because they don't know any other way. Don't you think that sending your son to a different HS would change his perspective? Insular works when you stay insular.

Is not being insular what they mean when they say they are "ruined"?

Can you not be insular and not be "ruined"?

I am sure being educated is going to change his perspective and broaden his horizons. I hope he remains "a good boy". I understand these schools are pro-Israel and prepare the boys for college level work.

amother

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 4:14 pm

amother wrote:

Well, I guess that they think that a teenager who wears a colored shirt is "ruined." If you disagree, maybe its a good fit for your DS.

To address the points individually:

(1) MTA is a MO school. MO does not have strict gender segregation. I'm sure MTA boys talk to girls. They may even have an event or two with Central.

(2) Yes, they wear colored kippas and colored shirt.

(3) I'm not sure if you're saying they dress like non-Jews or like homosexuals. But since I don't know how either group dresses, I've no clue. The kids I know dress pretty much, well, normal.

(4) They don't wear hats. Indeed, they are Men Without Hats. Few MO wear hats. I'm pretty sure Moshe Rabbeinu didn't wear a hat either. What's their point?

(5) They smoke pot. Some do. Some don't. Just like every high school in the US. If someone believes that no one in their kids' high school smokes pot, then they are seriously deluded.

(6) They don't have peyos. Like most MO kids.

(7) They won't be frum. If frum is defined by the color of your shirt, then they're right. If its defined by devotion to Judaism, then they're most likely wrong.

amother

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 4:14 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

[quote]

I have tried to raise my children to be accepting of different heshkofars. How do frum men become professionals? How can they go to college if the schools are preparing them to learn? Are they only BTs and older men?

When would you switch your kids over? Won't it always be confusing?

MaBelleVie

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 4:18 pm

[quote="amother"]

Quote:

I have tried to raise my children to be accepting of different heshkofars. How do frum men become professionals? How can they go to college if the schools are preparing them to learn? Are they only BTs and older men?

When would you switch your kids over? Won't it always be confusing?

Most frum people are not part of communities that insular and restrictive. What exactly is your background?

amother

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 4:40 pm

amother wrote:

Thank you for your honest answers. I hope you don't mind more questions.

Do MO boys ever shidduch date or do they date more like in the secular world? I don't know if talking to girls means more like dating in the secular world?

Are these boys nice and respectful? Is it only a small group who is smoking pot?

Do you think it is possible for a boy to maintain a right wing identity there?

Are ALL the boys frum in the sense they are kosher, shabbos observant, doven and learn?

I understand MTA guarantees acceptance into YU. Is YU made up of modern men or are there yeshivash? I honestly have no idea. Do you know if those who go to a learning high school struggle when they get to YU?

Your answers are very helpful. Thank you again.

amother

Mon, Jul 07 2014, 5:30 pm

amother wrote:

I'm sure that some boys date in high school. I doubt that very many MTA boys wind up shidduch dating.

amother wrote:

Are these boys nice and respectful? Is it only a small group who is smoking pot?

Shockingly enough, in my experience, lots of nice and respectful boys smoke pot. But most don't share that information with me.

amother wrote:

Do you think it is possible for a boy to maintain a right wing identity there?

I don't think that its fair to expect a teenager to be substantially different from his peers. If you send a boy to MTA, it should be because you anticipate and want him to be MO.

I'm not going to send my son to a black-hat school, then demand that he continue to be MO, and act MO. You need to have the same respect for a MO school.

amother wrote:

Are ALL the boys frum in the sense they are kosher, shabbos observant, doven and learn?

Well, you got me there. They have monthly Friday night pig roast and Satan worship sessions, where they draw pentagrams on the Torah. Rolling Eyes

Honestly, I cannot imagine a more offensive question. Kids in MO schools are ORTHODOX. Do some rebel and leave the proverbial derech? Sure. That's true of all schools, though.

amother wrote:

I understand MTA guarantees acceptance into YU. Is YU made up of modern men or are there yeshivash? I honestly have no idea. Do you know if those who go to a learning high school struggle when they get to YU?

I'm sure it depends. YU, like other colleges, expects that its students have completed a high school curriculum that includes English, math (at least through trig), science (biology, chemistry, physics) and history. If a "learning high school" includes that type of curriculum, I don't see the concern. If, however, you're referring to a school where the students don't read literature, aren't expected to research and write papers, don't learn science, and don't learn higher mathematics, then they would not be prepared for any traditional college, including YU.