Secular court vs Bais Din (split)

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ElTam

Mon, Aug 11 2014, 10:27 pm

Re: the Pilegesh B'givah, there are many, many, many statements of Chazal on that part of Tanakh. The one out of the many a person could choose from that a person chooses to bring speaks more about them than it does about Chazal and our religion.

I would argue that one should not ignore the pshat, where the Ish Levi makes all the shevatim aware of what happened in Givah, and all of shevatim (except for Binyamin, where Givah was located) come together to murder every man in Givah for what they did to the Pilegesh. And, when 600 men from Binyamin survive the civil war that happens because Binyamin refuses to punish the evildoers, all of Klal Yisrael band together to not made a shidduch with any of these men, so the people who didn't stand up when a woman was being raped and murdered literally die out with no one to follow after them.

The main point of the story is the way that sefer ends: "In those days, there was no king in Israel, each man did what was right in his own eyes." The people lacked both a physical king to give them direction and ensure the Torah was followed and (it can also be understood), they no longer followed the laws of the true King HKB"H.

It is a very apt discussion for this thread, because when the shevatim got the letter from the Ish Levi (with a piece of the Pilegesh), nobody said, "Oh, maybe she was asking for it. She shouldn't have left her Ish in the first place and it never would have happened." Nobody says, "Well, it didn't happen where we live so it's not our problem." Nobody said, "Oh, I don't believe that the men of Givah would do such a thing. I'm not listening to this lashon hara." Eleven of the 12 shevatim got right up and went to avenge the death of this woman. Perhaps in our time we will reach such a level of spirituality that we will react with zerizus and with kanoius when it comes to s-xual crimes.

5*Mom

Tue, Aug 12 2014, 3:01 am

mdoif wrote:

Before anyone writes something outraged along the lines of, "Do you seriously suggest...", I propose you ask someone learned whether I made up that Chazal. You might find that the Torah actually does place Hashem's honor above all (gasp!).

But Hashem doesn't. For the sins of Dor Haflaga, which were Bein Adam LaMakom, the consequence was dispersion. For the sins of Dor Hamabul, which were Bein Adam L'chaveiro the consequence was total destruction of the world and a need to start over from scratch. Because the world cannot sustain itself when people violate other people.

Same with Sedom. Violations bein adam l'chaverio ----> destruction.

chaiz

Tue, Aug 12 2014, 4:14 am

mdoif wrote:

I'm talking about the lawsuit. Suing a Yid in court is one of the worst aveiros. The SA writes about such a person that he is likened to a blasphemer and it is as if he'd raised his hand to smite the torah.

You know that stealing is also a big aveira and one of the causes of the mabul. And Hashem calls not having proper weights in business a toeva. So please start protesting those who do that. And if you are so worried about people going to secular courts blame the rabbanim, not the victims.

chaiz

Tue, Aug 12 2014, 4:21 am

mdoif wrote:

Each and every one of the 613 mitzvos.

There is a misconception brought about mainly by the Liberals, that if we see someone willfully being oiver on the torah we should ignore them, and that somehow 'judging' them is wrong. These same liberals, however, are usually very vociferous when they perceive an injustice has been done to a fellow man/woman. An excellent example of this is how vociferous the left is in condemning Israel for the 'massacres' of Arabs.

The torah's attitude is totally different. There is a Chazal where Hashem chastised the people involved in sticking up for the Pilegesh B'givah (where a woman was raped multiple times until she died): על כבודי לא מחיתם בכבוד בשר ודם מחיתם - You never stood up for My Honor (when Yidden worshiped idols), but you did stick up for a human being???

Chazal tell us the people were punished because of the above complaint.

The reason this seems so strange and out of place for many of us is because our connection to Hashem is unfortunately not strong enough, and we don't see Him as אחותי רעייתי יונתי תמתי, our ultimate Father and Beloved One.

Also people are often afraid to stick up for Hashem lest they appear 'holier-than-thou', which is also a modern-day no-no. Ironically nobody's afraid of appearing lowlier-than-thou, for after all there's no shame in sinning - au contraire, the greatest perversions are a source of Pride...

I, on the other hand, am unabashedly and unashamedly a staunch loyalist of Hashem. If I see His Name desecrated or His Will flippantly ignored, I voice my disapproval. See something - say something.

This is not to say that whenever you see someone being nichshal (stumbling) in an aveiroh you should start screaming bloody murder, as of course you should follow dinei toichocho. However, if we chalila see someone deliberately acting with complete disregard of the torah, especially in public (for example the youth smoking on Shabbos in Lakewood), then yes, Hashem mandates we should stand up and demand, "HOW DARE YOU???"

If you love G-D so much, you need to learn perek 32 in Tanya. It will only be a start to show you how to best express your love of G-D.

imasoftov

Tue, Aug 12 2014, 7:05 am

ElTam wrote:

I think I'd rather not use any part of Sefer Shoftim as an example of what to do, let alone the final chapters. But fortunately we no longer live in an anarchy, so let's leave revenge and kanous in that past and let's use tools available today.

Raisin

Tue, Aug 12 2014, 7:51 am

Why are people talking about child molestation? Wasn't the crimes committed by this seminary principal rape or s-xual assault? Unless people are sending very young girls to seminary nowadays...

both of course are evil and horrible crimes and deserve severe punishment.

Mdoif, bringing the story of the pilegesh bgivaah does not really help your cause. You can bring far more arguments against your case from it then the one chazal you mentioned.

Although the parallels between the cases are striking. Rape of young women, collusion among the men, no one protesting the crime...

In any case I think it is clear in both cases it is a severe lack of yiras shmayim on the part of the accused rapist/molestor(s) that led to them committing this crime.

And maybe, just like in the time of the pilegesh b'givah, we are lacking strong leadership which causes these awful events.

amother

Tue, Aug 12 2014, 10:35 am

Does anyone on here remember Tammytammy. I wonder if Tammytammy has returned in a new screen name mdoif.
They really speak the same and both argue like A man with no emotion. I wonder if yael can look into this because mdoif is totally not talking like a woman and is probably a pathetic older single guy who gets excited arguing with woman.

amother

Tue, Aug 12 2014, 10:42 am

Back to the question on hand if seemed like the Cbd is backing this. The lawsuit was filed in Chicago. Do u really think all potential victims are from Chicago only? No but Cbd is involved and probably that is the court that they recmended that they go to.
I think mdoif is trying to put in our mind that this case is against Halacha because if she really cared she would have picked up the phone and called rabbi fuerst. Maybe she is related to slanger and is trying to make her look innocent in our eyes.

Next chd spoke to slanger and she herself tried to cover up her brothers abuse so yes she should personally be sued.

People that cover up for molesters should be punished too.

And meisels and slanger is not listening to the Cbd so the only logical step is to bring it to court they tried beis din first/. The Halacha is only against going to court first and they did beis din and beis din can't help them so they have to go to secular court.

Meisels the low life thinks he is above the law and doesn't have to listen to anybody.

Barbara

Tue, Aug 12 2014, 10:43 am

Raisin wrote:

Because of this charming quote

mdoif wrote:

Is saving a Yid from becoming a 'rasha, blasphemer and striker of the torah'* not as noble as saving a child from being molested?

* which Mdoif had previously defined as a Jew who brings a court proceeding against another Jew.

Last edited by Barbara on Tue, Aug 12 2014, 10:48 am; edited 1 time in total

Chayalle

Tue, Aug 12 2014, 10:43 am

debsey wrote:

It seems to me there are two separate issues here:
1)The allegations against Rabbi Meisels, which need to be pursued to the fullest extent of the law. Generally, a bais din does allow for a molester to be turned over to secular authorities if he is seen as a danger to others. I have no idea what the plans are for Rabbi Meisels, but I sure hope SOMEONE is going to make sure that the only female he's ever private with again is his wife.
2) The parents of future students who wish to recoup their money. These are two separate issues, because the Israel Bais Din has said that the problems with the seminary have been rectified. So it makes sense from a business standpoint for the seminaries to try to retain their students. However, from an emotional standpoint, there's no WAY most people will send to that seminary, for sure not this year, so of course they want their money back. The part of the lawsuit that involves Mrs. Slanger, therefore, has nothing to do with the molestation, and has to do with the seminary saying "we've corrected the problem" and the parents saying "that's not good enough."
3) Just FYI, when people file a lawsuit, generally, the lawyers recommend suing EVERYONE who is even remotely related to the case. I worked in a school once, and parents sued (over what they decided was educational neglect by the school) and they sued EVERYONE, even the school nurse, who never saw their kid even once! That's how lawsuits work. So the fact that she is named in the lawsuit means very little about her actual involvement.

All of this.

amother

Tue, Aug 12 2014, 10:57 am

The parents are not only suing for their money back that is only a tenth of the lawsuit. Read all the charges.

They are suing that faculty members assisted in helping meisels cover the abuse up and they are suing that their child is being forced to go to meisels seminary and it will damage their child's shidduch.

They are also suing because the Ibd put out a psak that no other seminary can accept meisels students and the Cbd said the seminaries can. The seminaries are in Israel and are afraid of the Ibd. So they are only accepting the wealthy girls that are paying extra privately. What will it help to go to a third beis din. They have no choice but going to court.

I challenge mdoif what term does the Torah use for someone who tried beis din but the problem is they meisels thinks he's smarter than beis do and doesn't listen.

The fact is that this case was tried by the Cbd already and meisels signed himself in April that he will listen to whatever they decide. Once Cbd went against meisels he stopped listening to them.

Someone like meisels u hq e to take to court along with anyone who was aiding and abetting him(staff members a d family)

amother

Tue, Aug 12 2014, 11:03 am

We can have a discussion about going to court but in the meisels case a person can totally go to court.
Here they tried beis din first and it didn't work.
When u are dealing with a person who thinks he is above the law then court is your only option and any rabbi will tell u that.

PinkFridge

Tue, Aug 12 2014, 11:14 am

mdoif wrote:

This is ostensibly a frum site. As such one can assume the members keep the torah.

I am only halfway through. And I probably won't be able to open the link in the OP due to filters but I couldn't anyway.
My question is, since this is a frum site, and your question will inevitably lead to lashon hara (which I know can be l'toeles) what is your toeles now in asking this?

PinkFridge

Tue, Aug 12 2014, 11:16 am

marina wrote:

Mdoif, are you arguing that protecting children from molesters is less important than avoiding secular court?

Personally, I think that any Rav who chooses avoiding court over protecting children is unworthy of that title.

I am sure that someone will read my next sentence and start playing "Dueling Rabbis" but I think we can all come up with rabbanim who say that going to the authorities to stop a molester is not mesirah.
Now if you're going to say this is a lawsuit, not the police, I will tell you the truth. I would ask a rav first. But I do know which rabbanim to ask.

PinkFridge

Tue, Aug 12 2014, 11:25 am

mdoif wrote:

I learn my 2 halachos of shmiras halashon a day, and have done so for more than a few years. I've done it with the Guard Your Tongue Calendar as well as the current initiative in memory of Rebbetzin Kanievsky. A few things:
- There are halachos of how to be mochiach. One must make sure one will be mochiach properly so that, as the pasuk continues, lo sisa alav chet, the mochiach will not incur a sin for doing it improperly and hurting the person.
- One must be thoroughly sure of the sin involved.
- One must definitely be sure of the sin involved before reproving publicly. In this case, it sounds like you are reproving everyone who is suing. As you seem to be a halachic individual is it safe to assume that you personally know each person involved and know that they haven't consulted a halachic authority before proceeding?

You do know that there are not just responsible and reputable poskim that allow or recommend it (ETA again: "it" being going to secular court) under appropriate circumstances, but that included are the greatest poskim?

ETA to comment on the bold. Because you know for a fact that this is the best way to reach them? I remember a story I read about a chassidish gadol, I hope someone can fill in the blanks, about a gadol who saw someone smoking on Shabbos and somehow reached out to him and was mekarev him. Yes, this smoker was a Holocaust survivor. But I can guaran-blank-tee you that these kids are in their own kind of pain and a truly halachic Jew will first start with that as step one in devising a plan of action to get them to stop. My apologies for being so sharp but I don't know how else I can say this.

Last edited by PinkFridge on Tue, Aug 12 2014, 2:58 pm; edited 2 times in total

Barbara

Tue, Aug 12 2014, 11:30 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Actually, isn't what you said the biggest point of all.

PinkFridge thinks that it is necessary to ask a Rav before going to court.

Therefore, PinkFridge would go to a Rav.

In light of the foregoing, if PinkFridge brought a lawsuit, why would I ever doubt that she went to a Rav? Wouldn't I be obligated to assume that she did? Isn't the suggestion that she might not have halachically problematic?

[Sorry for using you as an example. But at least its an example of doing the right thing!]

PinkFridge

Tue, Aug 12 2014, 11:34 am

marina wrote:

See, my post was reported, but really: if your god chooses his honor over that of a dead rape victim...your philosophy is not all that different than that of the ISIS fundamentalists, is it?

I must have missed something. Which post was reported? I meant to mention that your first contribution to this thread was not only substantial in content but beautiful in the levelness of your tone.

PinkFridge

Tue, Aug 12 2014, 11:39 am

Barbara wrote:

I just wanted to explain: if I saw someone assaulting someone I would call the police. In the case of going to court, I would have a few minutes to breathe and yes, I know that there is a serious issue with going to court, so I would get halachic guidance as to the best way to proceed. Because if there is one thing this whole sad story has taught us, it is that there are rabbanim who are doing their level best to be shepherds.
And I don't mind being your example.

amother

Tue, Aug 12 2014, 12:22 pm

amother wrote:

Her callousness and lack of empathy and the way she cites Halacha screams to me that she is a man bored of bein hazemanim with nothing else to do but argue with a bunch of woman. A pathetic loser guy.

Yes, I have believed that mdoif is a man since "her" first posts defending the rights of a man to deny a get. It's getting ridiculous already.

marina

Tue, Aug 12 2014, 1:19 pm

Pink- my distaste for Mdoif's pilegesh b'givah was reported. I think it was on the previous page.

Also, FYI, another example of Hashem not placing His honor first would be the halachos of Sotah, where we erase His name to keep shalom bayis.

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