Secular court vs Bais Din (split)

mdoif

Mon, Aug 11 2014, 3:39 pm

5*Mom wrote:

How about warning people about the severity of violating the lav of "lo sa'amod al dam re'acha?" You could save lots of people that way.

In the past year, how many times have you seen people cautioning against protecting molesters, and how many times have you seen someone quote the SA on going to court?

So which one needs more exposure?

shabbatiscoming

Mon, Aug 11 2014, 3:40 pm

mdoif wrote:

You don't know me at all so don't assume I have no firsthand experience with beis din. However just because there's no kosher meat to be bought doesn't mean we can buy treyf. Yes there are occasions when it's muttar to go to court, but deciding such shaalos on one's own is extremely hazardous for their olam haba. Is it worth it???

In some regards, yes, it is worth it. And not to get into another heated debate, but not everyone on this sight asks rabbanim every question under the sun. Not everyone asks rabbanim for heterim. Just so you realize.

mummiedearest

Mon, Aug 11 2014, 3:40 pm

mdoif wrote:

mdoif, is it worth it to appoint yourself everyone's moral monitor? I don't think anyone here has verified your suspicion that this was brought to court without rabbinic backup. what happened to giving people the benefit of the doubt? you are spreading lashon hara about the people who are suing. there is no actual purpose to this. there are ways to inform people without making others out to be bad jews.

shabbatiscoming

Mon, Aug 11 2014, 3:41 pm

mdoif wrote:

your motives here are completely skewed. dont you see that?

mdoif

Mon, Aug 11 2014, 3:41 pm

5*Mom wrote:

Why are you assuming that they haven't??

Go back and you'll see I only asked what heter there is.

That said, in absence of any publicized heter, and/or any mention of attempting to sue in beis din, it's not so outrageous to assume there is no heter.

5*Mom

Mon, Aug 11 2014, 3:42 pm

mdoif wrote:

In the past year I have become aware of far too many children who have been molested and far too many rabbanim and institutions covering it up, so I will say that "lo sa'amod" needs more exposure.

mummiedearest

Mon, Aug 11 2014, 3:44 pm

mdoif wrote:

the former. those who protect molesters are rodfim, and potential victims have the halachic right to kill them to prevent being victimized. suing is a lot less serious than killing, and in fact would be the best way to prevent others from harm, given the law of the land. unless, of course, you endorse vigilantism. in which case, I can see why you think suing is the one that needs more exposure.

mdoif

Mon, Aug 11 2014, 3:44 pm

mummiedearest wrote:

Don't we all appoint ourselves everyone's moral monitor? Is saving a Yid from becoming a 'rasha, blasphemer and striker of the torah' not as noble as saving a child from being molested?

About assuming they went to court without a heter, I didn't. I only asked what heter there was.

mdoif

Mon, Aug 11 2014, 3:46 pm

5*Mom wrote:

In the past year I have become aware of far too many children who have been molested and far too many rabbanim and institutions covering it up, so I will say that "lo sa'amod" needs more exposure.

We'll agree to disagree. In any case you're more than welcome to educate people about the perils of protecting molesters, while I'll educate them about the severity of going to court. There's is no connection or contradiction between the two.

shabbatiscoming

Mon, Aug 11 2014, 3:48 pm

mdoif wrote:

NO not everyone appoints themselves everyone's moral monitor!!!!!!!!! Not at all. Not even close.

(now things are sooooooo clear. you actually said it outloud. Sigh. A big sigh)

Who makes anyone a moral monitor for anyone else? Just terrible.

5*Mom

Mon, Aug 11 2014, 3:48 pm

mdoif wrote:

If you received a heter to sue someone in secular court you'd publicize it?

No, mdoif, say it aint so. You couldn't possibly be allowing us to assume that someone is guilty of all those terrible things written in the SA about suing in secular court, now can you? You know what the Chafetz Chaim says about how many issurei de'oraisa are involved in what you are suggesting and in our acceptance of it, right? Not to mention that there is no toeles in it at all.

mdoif

Mon, Aug 11 2014, 3:52 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

But you do ask for niddah shaalos. That's because you realize the severity of niddah. That's my aim when educating about going to court, that people realize just how severe an issue it is.

mdoif

Mon, Aug 11 2014, 3:54 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Of course you do, you just pick different moralities to monitor. Isn't all your talk about exposing molesters and their protectors 'moral monitoring'?

shabbatiscoming

Mon, Aug 11 2014, 3:54 pm

mdoif wrote:

But you do ask for niddah shaalos. That's because you realize the severity of niddah. That's my aim when educating about going to court, that people realize just how severe an issue it is.

How do you know if I have ever asked a nida question? Or others for that matter? I know people who do not ask nida quetions.
what is your point here? its not working.

mummiedearest

Mon, Aug 11 2014, 3:54 pm

mdoif wrote:

no, it's not. everyone has their own free choice. if they want to become reshaim, that's their decision. being molested is what happens when the victim's free will is overridden. not only that, molestation is as good a cause as any to become a rasha, blasphemer, and striker of the torah. and having the community back up the molester only enforces that. we need our communities to support the victims in every way possible. chastising someone for doing something to prevent further incidences is the same as backing up the molester. would you like to be a rodef? I assume not.

oh, and asking what heter there is indicates that you don't believe there is one. when you go to a friend's house for a shabbos meal, do you ask what hechsher the meat is (while sitting down to the meal)? I sincerely hope you wouldn't, because that indicates you don't trust your friend's kashrus. if you have your doubts about the lawsuit, it's better to contact someone in the know and find out what the deal is. publicly questioning the halachic validity of a legal move made for the good of the community is really inappropriate. and it shows where your values lie. you're not making yourself look good here.

shabbatiscoming

Mon, Aug 11 2014, 3:56 pm

mdoif wrote:

Of course you do, you just pick different moralities to monitor. Isn't all your talk about exposing molesters and their protectors 'moral monitoring'?

wow, just wow. Nothing else to say to that.
That you are equating going to a secular court with someone being a molester is sickening to me.

mummiedearest

Mon, Aug 11 2014, 3:56 pm

mdoif wrote:

Of course you do, you just pick different moralities to monitor. Isn't all your talk about exposing molesters and their protectors 'moral monitoring'?

that's not moral monitoring, that's public service. as a community, we have the obligation to protect our children. nuf said.

mdoif

Mon, Aug 11 2014, 3:57 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

How do you know if I have ever asked a nida question? Or others for that matter? I know people who do not ask nida quetions.
what is your point here? its not working.

This is ostensibly a frum site. As such one can assume the members keep the torah.