Don't Judge Hasidic Seat-Switchers by Tova Ross

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OOTBubby

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 10:17 am

We are Litvish Yeshivish (American style). While we would sit next to a person of the opposite relations, we do prefer not to, and certain not in the middle of 2 but we would never ask for a switch for these reasons. What we do though to minimize an issue (and for additional comfort) is to each reserve an aisle seat (across from each other). For me, an aisle seat is important as I have bad knees and that gives me a little more room to sit comfortably.

I have been asked (when traveling alone overseas) to switch seats for "religious" reasons, and replied that I would be happy to do so if I could switch to another aisle seat on the same side (so the same leg had the extra room). Of course that wasn't what they had in mind -- why is it that those who need to switch seats always have middle seats? When you make your ticket you can select your seat and choosing an aisle (or even a window) then will minimize the problems.

In one of these situations, someone near me agreed to let his son (around 9 years old) make the switch and I wound up sitting next to the 9 year old (it was a several-way switch). I had no problem sitting next to his 9 year old son (a nice, frum boy), but, he kept asking me questions through the entire 14 hour flight! I really wanted to relax and rest, but didn't want to be rude to him. Personally, I think the father was wrong to send the son to sit on his own without a parent supervising him.

Ruchel

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 10:17 am

Oh just discussing mega frum, slim or not.

PinkFridge

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 10:21 am

Ruchel wrote:

Oh just discussing mega frum, slim or not.

I know, I was just joking.
And in asking someone to switch, I think it's not right to ask if the person will lose in quality, e.g. aisle or window to a middle seat.

roika

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 10:24 am

chani8 wrote:

She sounds like she doesn't know what she's talking about. She's never witnessed their behavior firsthand, that's for sure. She's never walked through their neighborhood worried about her safety. She's never been bullied by them. Never saw their egg throwing, mob behavior. They are extremists and bullies. While in contrast, having witnessed the WOW firsthand, with their grannies in kippot and other harmlessness, to compare the two groups or find some commonality between them is just ridiculous.

I am I right top assume that you may not either know what you're talking about and never walked through their neighborhood!! I for one have walked there and couldn't have felt safer and yeah I would find WOW to be dangerous and I mean a big spiritual danger!

mommy3b2c

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 10:24 am

Clarissa wrote:

” We all know that those who ask for seat changes don’t handle “I’d rather not” as an acceptable answer. We all know that the woman is pressured into making a move, even if they have to move to an uncomfortable location they didn’t request, as my elderly mother was pressured to do.

This is obviously not true. Two women on this board wrote that their husband would politely ask, and not push further if declined. Why is it okay to make blanket statements about a group of people? I happen to agree with the author. If you ask politely and don't make a fuss, it is okay. If you are rude and make a fuss it is not okay. There is nothing wrong with asking nicely, even if my personal opinion is that it is a silly thing to worry about.

Barbara

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 10:40 am

roika wrote:

Yes, nothing says "danger to your soul" like a group of people davening and leyning.

vintagebknyc

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 10:42 am

the seat requests have been going on forever, mostly quietly and politely.

the recent situations are unacceptable and hostile. also a chillul hashem. I witnessed a lesser form of this behavior daily when I worked in south williamsburg years ago, pre-frum. there were the signs (in hebrew) about tznius. if a man was in front of me going into a store he'd let it slam in my face. mostly, many men pretended I just wasn't there. I was ignored when I went shopping--cashiers would pretend I was not there with my items, and didn't acknowledge me until told them I'd happily leave without paying for my challah if I wasn't rung up.

the difference between my experiences and the issues on the planes is that I was treated poorly in their neighborhoods.

I'll trade my window seat if I'm politely provided with another. but the crazy? no.

cbsp

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 10:42 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Hasidic Seat-Switchers would make an excellent name for a rock band. (Guess where I'm going next.)
And Ms. Ross, reasonable point. May I add that it's been a long time since I've been patronized so elegantly.

I'm curious as to what you found patronizing in the article

roika

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 10:48 am

Barbara wrote:

Yes, nothing says "danger to your soul" like a group of people davening and leyning.

That's right, it starts with things that appear to be right, so we are taken in and slowly allow all their skewed hashkofos in.

vintagebknyc

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 10:48 am

roika wrote:

please read my most recent post, above. safe? I could have been hit by a car (near misses happened daily) and could have laid on the street bleeding unless a woman was nearby. some men might call hatzola, but I don't believe any would have come to see if I was ok.

ally

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 11:05 am

roika wrote:

That's right, it starts with things that appear to be right, so we are taken in and slowly allow all their skewed hashkofos in.

This is how many people feel about men refusing to sit near a woman on a plane...

Last edited by ally on Wed, Nov 05 2014, 11:06 am; edited 1 time in total

PinkFridge

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 11:05 am

cbsp wrote:

I'm curious as to what you found patronizing in the article

Quotes like
- I might think he’s an extremist, and I might think he’s not practicing a very halachic form of Judaism, but as for taking personal offense, so long as my uncomfortable Hasidic or Haredi male neighbor asks politely if he can switch his seat, and so long as he doesn’t hold up a flight should it be impossible to find an empty seat or willing passenger ready to switch, then I have bigger things by which to be offended than his preference not to sit next to me.

-But it’s not news that Haredi culture both views and treats women differently than modern Jewish culture does. As any more progressive people viewing a more fundamentalist community, what we see from the outside as the relegation of women to the background is viewed much differently by those on the inside. We may jeer at their explanations about the inherent holiness within women that warrants such gender separation, call it misogyny and vow never to let ourselves and our daughters fall prey to it,[b] but it’s another Jew’s right to practice his religion the way he sees fit—barring real physical or mental abuse toward others—despite how distasteful we may find it.

-I think it’s probably difficult for men who are so thoroughly unaccustomed to interacting with non-Hasidic people, especially, say, a female flight attendant, to know the mannerly way to ask for a favor. [Wonder if she meant non-Hareidim too. PF]

-A favor for a fellow Jew, no matter how archaic we may deem his beliefs.

For some reason, I'm thinking of an adorable Doonesbury cartoon, I wish I had access to a scanner and more. It was a Sunday cartoon, of some bloviating American ambassador visiting with an ambassador from some African country, talking through a translator in a very demeaning patronizing way and the ambassador (who of course understands English, and whose country happens not to be third world) and translator having good fun with the guy.

black sheep

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 11:19 am

PinkFridge wrote:

I agree with you. I found the tone of the article to be very patronizing.

mirror

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 11:29 am

Sanguine wrote:

El Al is dealing with the problem (don't get offended, it's just cute)

Is this a new heter for Chareidim, if you are seated next to a woman you can zipper yourself up in a sleeping bag of some sort?

Barbara

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 11:35 am

roika wrote:

That's right, it starts with things that appear to be right, so we are taken in and slowly allow all their skewed hashkofos in.

Indeed. Today they're holding up flights until people are willing to give up their own seats to them, forcing women to the back of the bus, and putting up signs stating that unless you dress like them, you shouldn't be walking on streets where they live. Who knows what other warped hashkofos they'll demand in the future if we give in.

That is what you meant, isn't it?

marina

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 11:39 am

If we are going to excuse some chareidi people's attitudes about women because of their culture or background or upbringing, why don't we just excuse the catcallers for the same reason?

Women, don't be offended when people judge you by your body and objectify you. Some chareidim do it because that's the way they were raised, that's their culture, and belief system and we must not be offended. Some catcallers do it because that's the way they were raised, that's their culture and belief system, and we must not take offense.

fmt4

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 11:51 am

I definitely think that it depends on how you're asked. Honestly, sitting next to anyone you don't know on a long plane ride can be an uncomfortable experience. I would also rather be next to a woman than a man. But most people just suck it up and deal with it. But if a religious man really feels like it will be an extremely uncomfortable experience for him, I don't see a problem with him figuring out a solution as long as it's done with tact, sensitivity and maybe a bit of humor and self- deprecance. I've seen it done this way, and was insulted by it at all. But when it's done with arrogance, rudeness and an attitude of expecting others to bend over backwards for their needs, then it becomes a problem.

marina

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 11:51 am

amother wrote:

The last two comments are total nonsense. There are plenty of normal chareidi men who don't want to sit next to women. My husband included. He's a cool, chassidishe guy but sitting next to a woman is very uncomfortable for him. Now, like the majority of chareidi travelers, he wouldn't ask a woman to change her seat for him, but he would ask a flight attendant if there was a seat available next to a man.

He has never thrown a stone at anyone, never spit at anyone, never called any woman names, never thrown eggs, acid or molotov cocktails or anything of the sort.

Asking for a seat change is not fanaticism.

Why is sitting next to a woman uncomfortable for him? What worries him? Will he have bad thoughts? Will he accidentally touch her when she could be impure? Will he be unable to concentrate on davening because of her s-xuality?

PinkFridge

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 12:01 pm

black sheep wrote:

I agree with you. I found the tone of the article to be very patronizing.

Thanks. I figured that I got those "likes' for a reason Wink

amother

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 12:01 pm

I'm very Chassidish and think it's disgusting.
My DH travels a lot for business, family, and to his Rebbe of course, and he'd never ask to switch.
You booked your flights? You landed near a woman? Too bad!

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