Don't Judge Hasidic Seat-Switchers by Tova Ross

PinkFridge

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 12:02 pm

marina wrote:

Why is sitting next to a woman uncomfortable for him? What worries him? Will he have bad thoughts? Will he accidentally touch her when she could be impure? Will he be unable to concentrate on davening because of her s-xuality?

I think you're on to something!
Ladies, I for one will not let my husband fly or take any kind of public transportation ever again. One short trip and he might end up leaving me!

( Rolling Eyes

)

PinkFridge

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 12:04 pm

amother wrote:

I'm very Chassidish and think it's disgusting.
My DH travels a lot for business, family, and to his Rebbe of course, and he'd never ask to switch.
You booked your flights? You landed near a woman? Too bad!

You know, I don't want to live in a world where someone will be considered less shtark if he doesn't ask to switch. But I also don't want to live in a world where such a request, politely made, can't be considered.

fmt4

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 12:06 pm

Marina, I don't think you're being fair. Sitting next to someone on a plane for 10 hours has an aspect of intimacy. That's why regular guys always hope they'll sit next to a pretty girl. I've been in situations where I've accidentally fallen asleep on the guy next to me, or had to tap him on the shoulder in order to get out to go to the bathroom. I'm sure some guys have seen more skin then I intended to show from the way I sat in my seat with my knees up as I like to do, or adjusted me position while sleeping. That's why I would rather sit next to a woman despite being MO and having no problem sitting next to men in other situations. All the things I described are things that could happen to a chareidi man and put him in a situation where he feels uncomfortable, and where he might be going against what he feels is correct. It's ok for him to take measures to try to make sure that he isn't in that situation, as long as he does it in a socially correct manner.

dancingqueen

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 12:09 pm

I've asked to switch seats so I can sit next to my dh when we accidentally had booked seats separately and I found most people do not like being asked to switch. I do think it's ok to ask very politely and respectfully and IMO not mentioning that it's because they don't want to sit next to women since that is offensive to people.

If it's done in a rude or entitled way it's a chillul Hashem IMO.

marina

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 12:19 pm

fmt4 wrote:

Again, what is the fear? That our husbands will be unable to control themselves and have to run to the bathroom for some zera levatala? That the 10hour ride will lead to an affair?

Asking to switch because of someone's gender screams objectification, screams that you see women only as boobs and vag1nas. You can't even sit next to one without losing your self control

amother

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 12:20 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

Of course, politely considered, that yes if he feels it's necessary.
But he'd never expect it nor demand it, and definitely not put on a show.

cbsp

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 12:36 pm

marina wrote:

I find this to be patronizing. I'm not saying you need to agree with changing seats but why do you get to judge his motivations? Why is he not allowed the same leeway to fulfill his religious obligations that you're so eager to give the WoW?

June

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 12:40 pm

marina wrote:

why are you always so extreme?

it's not about zera levatala or affairs. Rolling Eyes

it's about comfort. personally, I'm definitely less relaxed and more careful when I'm on a long flight next to a male

Last edited by June on Wed, Nov 05 2014, 12:44 pm; edited 1 time in total

ally

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 12:48 pm

fmt4 wrote:

The thing is that I am not sure there is a socially correct manner to tell a woman that her very presence is "problematic".
I know I'm going to be yelled at for being intolerant etc etc.. but to me, the very premise of these requests is offensive as it objectifies me. The Chareidim can tell me I am wrong, it really has nothing to do with my s-x but esoteric purity or my being on a higher spiritual level...but I do not believe this. I think that a man's refusal to sit next to me is because he has been trained to view me as a temptress, as my body and something to be avoided.

So then what? When someone's religious views begin to impose on another's inherent rights - such as the right to be able to sit in peace in public - I'm not even going to start with the harrassment - then what? Why must I be "tolerant" of other peoples religious sensitivity when they cannot be tolerant of my sensitivities -which are much closer to the societal norms in the place where this dialogue is occurring?

June

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 12:49 pm

Barbara wrote:

So then what is it about? Why is a man forbidden to sit next to a woman in a public accommodation if not because of a risk that he will be attracted to her? And if he is forbidden, why is the onus on others to accommodate him?

I never said the onus is on others to accommodate him. I was just pointing out that marina is getting very extreme.

people who are generally careful about shmiras enayim would be very uncomfortable sitting in a tiny airplane seat next to a woman for 12 hours. I don't see why, if it's done politely, they can't ask to change their seat. if people can do it when they don't want to sit next to a baby, why isn't it acceptable here?

Clarissa

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 12:53 pm

amother wrote:

I for one don't know that. I have refused a seat change more than once and no one tried pressuring me. I don't say it has never happened, but your sweeping generalization is just wrong. Even though I'm amother.

Post as yourself and I’ll engage. Why are you ashamed of your opinion? Have you revealed something deeply personal about yourself?

Last edited by Clarissa on Wed, Nov 05 2014, 12:54 pm; edited 1 time in total

Barbara

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 12:54 pm

June wrote:

THIS

why is it always a one-way street when it comes to tolerance?

(1) Do you support the Women of the Wall being fully allowed to daven out loud and to leyn from sefer Torah at the Kotel, whenever they choose, and without any interference from anyone? If not, then, given your statements, aren't you a hypocrite?

(2) Do you not understand the difference between doing something in an open area, where you can walk away, and in a plane?

(3) Are you engaging in deliberate baiting? I ask because the rules of this site do not permit discussion of Women of the Wall, and yet there have been multiple posts attempting to bait people into discussing them. The rules of this site also forbid me from accusing you of being a troll, so I'll merely state that these are the types of posts that one would expect of a troll.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Start a business. Charedi Air. Buy blocks of tickets with priority reserved seating on certain flights, and sell them, at a premium only to Charedi men. Then they can be guaranteed to sit where they want, and you'll make a nice living.

Barbara

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 12:58 pm

June wrote:

"Uncomfortable" doesn't mean "forbidden."

Are you saying that its not "forbidden"?

roika

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 1:01 pm

ally wrote:

Please let me know which ultra-orthodox sects discourage mixed seating on the plane but are supportive of religious freedom at the kotel.

Fortunately none but people like you expect them to be supportive, so why can't they expect you to be supportive of their beliefs especially considering that there's has a basis in the torah and WOWs does not!

ally

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 1:09 pm

roika wrote:

"Men refusing to sit next to women has a stronger base in halachik sources ("torah") than women wearing talleisim " would make a great debate topic.

At any rate, it is quite rich to demand tolerance from others while refusing to be tolerant yourself.