Don't Judge Hasidic Seat-Switchers by Tova Ross

Barbara

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 1:13 pm

roika wrote:

Fortunately none but people like you expect them to be supportive, so why can't they expect you to be supportive of their beliefs especially considering that there's has a basis in the torah and WOWs does not!

So, let's get this straight.

As far as you're concerned, it is "fortunate" -- a d@mned good thing -- that Charedim are intolerant of religious observance by anyone other than Charedim. Even when those observances don't actually affect them. Moreover, there is a very strong halachic basis for permitting women to daven out loud, and for allowing women to read Torah.

But the fact that others might choose not to be inconvenienced -- by changing plane seats, by the inevitable delays when people don't sit down immediately in planes -- is terrible.

I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, strange, I am ungrateful to those teachers.
Khalil Gibran

Last edited by Barbara on Wed, Nov 05 2014, 1:16 pm; edited 1 time in total

saw50st8

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 1:13 pm

ally wrote:

The thing is that I am not sure there is a socially correct manner to tell a woman that her very presence is "problematic".
I know I'm going to be yelled at for being intolerant etc etc.. but to me, the very premise of these requests is offensive as it objectifies me. The Chareidim can tell me I am wrong, it really has nothing to do with my s-x but esoteric purity or my being on a higher spiritual level...but I do not believe this. I think that a man's refusal to sit next to me is because he has been trained to view me as a temptress, as my body and something to be avoided.

So then what? When someone's religious views begin to impose on another's inherent rights - such as the right to be able to sit in peace in public - I'm not even going to start with the harrassment - then what? Why must I be "tolerant" of other peoples religious sensitivity when they cannot be tolerant of my sensitivities -which are much closer to the societal norms in the place where this dialogue is occurring?

I wouldn't be offended by someone's request. Many people have many, many offensive philosophies. That's ok; they are entitled to their own opinion. I think they are entitled to ask and the person is entitled to say no.

But I do always find it funny that Charedi society asks for so much leeway for their religious freedom and then (as a general rule) turns around and tries to limit other's freedom.

BlueRose52

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 1:13 pm

marina wrote:

Asking to switch because of someone's gender screams objectification, screams that you see women only as boobs and vag1nas.

This is a surprise? I've always observed this to be the case. Anytime I've heard frum people complain about how the secular world views women as sеx objects, I can't help laughing. Really? You think the frum world's any better?! If anything they're worse in some ways. The only difference between the objectifiers in the secular world and those in the religious world is that in the secular world, lusting after someone is allowed, and in the frum world, one is discouraged from letting one's mind go down that path, but the actual notion of viewing every woman primarily in a sеxual light very much exists in the frum world!

June

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 1:14 pm

Barbara wrote:

(1) Do you support the Women of the Wall being fully allowed to daven out loud and to leyn from sefer Torah at the Kotel, whenever they choose, and without any interference from anyone? If not, then, given your statements, aren't you a hypocrite?

(2) Do you not understand the difference between doing something in an open area, where you can walk away, and in a plane?

(3) Are you engaging in deliberate baiting? I ask because the rules of this site do not permit discussion of Women of the Wall, and yet there have been multiple posts attempting to bait people into discussing them. The rules of this site also forbid me from accusing you of being a troll, so I'll merely state that these are the types of posts that one would expect of a troll.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Start a business. Charedi Air. Buy blocks of tickets with priority reserved seating on certain flights, and sell them, at a premium only to Charedi men. Then they can be guaranteed to sit where they want, and you'll make a nice living.

I'm not going into point 1, because as you rightfully pointed out in point 3, discussion of WOW is not allowed. I didn't even mention them - it was originally mentioned on page 1 by someone else. I just find it interesting in general how some people are more worthy of tolerance than others.

(2) I don't agree with forcing anybody to change their seats, and I think that the recent stories of chareidim making scenes is a huge chillul hashem and absolutely assur.

as to your next post: sitting next to a woman is absolutely not forbidden. but traveling breeds familiarity, and on a long flight/small aircraft, many frum men would find it uncomfortable.

mommy3b2c

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 1:46 pm

ally wrote:

Please let me know which ultra-orthodox sects discourage mixed seating on the plane but are supportive of religious freedom at the kotel.

Please tell me which sects are supportive of religous freedom at the kotel and also supportive of men's rights to politely ask to switch seats.

June

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 2:06 pm

ally wrote:

So as long as hareidim are unwilling to tolerate secular influence or ideals - even outside of their "own" neighbourhoods - they should not expect tolerance from others?

all sides have to work on tolerance.

but it's dishonest to claim to have the moral high ground when it's only directed at some groups. at least chareidim make no pretense about it.

marina

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 2:10 pm

June wrote:

why are you always so extreme?

it's not about zera levatala or affairs. Rolling Eyes

it's about comfort. personally, I'm definitely less relaxed and more careful when I'm on a long flight next to a male

I'm less relaxed and more careful when I'm on a long flight next to ANY stranger. So what? I don't ask to be moved.

Please- it's not about "comfort"

Barbara

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 2:13 pm

mommy2b2c wrote:

Please tell me which sects are supportive of religous freedom at the kotel and also supportive of men's rights to politely ask to switch seats.

Tell me which sect of Judaism objects to people politely asking to change seats, so long as doing so doesn't delay the flight. Which sect has demanded that the Israeli government bar Charedim from flying on El Al.

Tell me how many people have thrown chairs and fecal matter at people politely asking about seat changes, without delaying the flight.

marina

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 2:14 pm

cbsp wrote:

I find this to be patronizing. I'm not saying you need to agree with changing seats but why do you get to judge his motivations? Why is he not allowed the same leeway to fulfill his religious obligations that you're so eager to give the WoW?

Did I say anything about WoW in this thread? Why are you bringing this in?

I get to judge motivations of people who act offensively towards me, yes I do. If a guy is catcalling me on the street, I get to judge his motivations. If a guy won't sit next to me because I' a Jew, I get to judge his motivations. If a guy won't sit next to me because I'm an attorney, or Russian, or Mongolian, yes, I get to judge his motivations. Same for a guy who won't sit next to me because I'm a female.

Not sure, again, what this has to do with WoW. But we judge their motivations all the time. If their motivation was: mwahahahaha, I don't care about God, I just want to piss off chassidim, that would be unacceptable. But it isn't- there's nothing offensive about their motivations.

marina

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 2:19 pm

June wrote:

I never said the onus is on others to accommodate him. I was just pointing out that marina is getting very extreme.

people who are generally careful about shmiras enayim would be very uncomfortable sitting in a tiny airplane seat next to a woman for 12 hours. I don't see why, if it's done politely, they can't ask to change their seat. if people can do it when they don't want to sit next to a baby, why isn't it acceptable here?

Babies are different b/c we all understand how babies can be unpleasant to sit next to A crying baby - everyone gets it. Not all of us, yet, understand how all women can be unpleasant to sit next to. Some of us think women are okay as creatures go.

mirror

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 2:26 pm

Barbara wrote:

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Start a business. Charedi Air. Buy blocks of tickets with priority reserved seating on certain flights, and sell them, at a premium only to Charedi men. Then they can be guaranteed to sit where they want, and you'll make a nice living.

Or just have El Al designate one flight per week for Chareidim only. I would not be offended.

June

Wed, Nov 05 2014, 2:27 pm

marina, you're being dishonest.

how do you know that the motives of the guy who doesn't want to sit next to you ARE offensive, and the motives of the women who must not be named are NOT offensive? you don't know what any one person's true motives are.

anyway, regardless of YOUR judgments, the truth is most chareidi people would prefer to sit next to someone of the same gender just for their personal comfort. it's uncomfortable enough to be sitting within 2 inches of a total stranger for 12 hours - for someone who doesn't have much contact with the opposite gender, it's a lot worse. so for their own comfort they ask to switch. it has nothing to do with YOU. get over it.