infertility trouble does NOT equal adoption by default!!!

amother

Wed, Nov 19 2014, 9:10 pm

amother wrote:

It's not just throwing in IF in that thread. It just burnt my eyes to see people complaining about something that people would give away anything to have that.

I can tell from your insensitivity that you're not aware of the people's pain who go through IF.

Please, can we stop this? Having a baby and feeling like you dont want it/cant handle it is immensely painful because of the guilt and shame and depression and other stressors going on that have brought this desperation. Which mother doesnt want to feel blessed? If she doesn't, she's suffering. And she has to keep hearing that she has no right to feel the pain she feels? People don't have the right to feelings, they just feel. I understand the insensitivity of venting to someone who wants a child, but these forums are optional.
I have a friend whose bc failed and she was having babies very close in age with no sb and no money, plus health issues etc. She cried to me why doesn't Hashem give my baby to that woman who needs it because I will collapse and then my other childrend won't have a mother. Maybe such mothers should do exactly that. But please, the judging and measuring of pain has to stop.

amother

Wed, Nov 19 2014, 10:41 pm

amother wrote:

Y'Know what? You have no right to complain, either, because you have a chance to have kids. So your complaints are completely and utterly insensitive to people like my friend Diane who had uterine cancer at age 22, and will never have biological children of her own. Ditto my friend Yardena who is currently undergoing treatment for ovarian cancer; she doesn't have kids, and she never will. Or what about me. I got pregnant before our first anniversary. Yay me. Then while I was pregnant, my husband became permanently and irreversibly impotent due to medical issues. Because of our combined ages (he is very substantially older than me, so I had another good 15 to 20 childbearing years left), we couldn't adopt. And he wouldn't even consider donor sperm. No chance at another kid, ever. And absolutely no intimate life. Do I win? Am I the one who gets to talk about being hurt? I sure know about infertility. Or at least about not being able to have another child. And I know it in a way that I pray you never will, hopelessly.

Or maybe you're right. Maybe yiur pain is worse because I wouldn't give away anything I have for another child. I have a friend whose husband died, leaving her with 4 babies. I wouldn't give up my husband, flawed as he is, for those kids. Or Yardena, whom I mentioned above, her sister has 8 kids now, including twins born after years of SIF, just weeks after Yardena's diagnosis. But I wouldn't give up my sister's health for those babies.

Grow up. Everyone has her own pain, and having a little empathy for others doesn't mean that your pain isn't being acknowledged. My friend whose father died, at home, in his sleep, on 9/11 was entitled to mourn him even though there was other, greater pain in the world. And a woman is entitled to talk about the difficulties of never having that newlywed adjustment period due to pregnancy. It doesn't mean that she is insensitive to your pain. It just means that she has her own as well.

chani8

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 2:22 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

From another thread a poster wrote this and the bolded is what made my blood boil.

Quote:

Not having a baby is not the worst thing in the world. If it is to you, then you always adopt a child who needs a home.

I want to set the record straight for anyone who does not know anything about infertility or for those that think they know it all about infertility but in fact are being extremely insensitive about it.

from the post from the other thread, this is just one of the many STUPID things that people say about IF that they think are true by default, but in fact are not at all true.
Yes, there are many couples who have difficulty getting pregnant who will adopt, but it is not a for sure thing. There are so many couples out there that would never ever think of adopting, even if they never end up having children of their own.

If you really dont know about a subject, just keep quiet. Because if you dont, you just end up hurting people without even realizing it.

End rant. For now.

I dont see how the comment "you can always adopt" is so "extremely insensitive". The first sentence there, however, is insensitive because it discounts someone's pain.

I do appreciate this thread bringing up adoption issues, though, because it's important to explain how difficult adoption can be. Here in Israel, it is free, but there is a long waiting list. There is also psych evals and proof of income requirements, and age limits.

Personally, I could not understand why couples would not want to adopt. I want people to want my foster-to-adopt babies. ETA- This thread has been helpful because of your explanations. Thank you.

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 2:29 am

chani8 wrote:

hence this thread.
Chani, I had a friend, a late convert in life. She got married well after 40. COuld not have kids. Husband was sterile. He did not want to adopt because he was a cohen and if he were to have had boys, well, they would not be kohanim. Thats just one reason.
I did not know adoption in Israel is free. But I have heard that you can not always be guaranteed a newborn. I know many who have adopted internationally because of that.

There are just so many different reasons why adoption is just not for everyone and we can not judge.

Ruchel

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 5:39 am

International is expensive, means you can take lots of free days to travel, often in a row (like one, two, three (!) months), and countries have their criteria, and your own country has them on how much you make, size of apartment, they may dislike very heavy religion (I know of veiled women who had problems for ex), once you have the kid there may be one year of trial where they can take back, may you never know, clueless and cold amothers, what it's all about.

Not even touching those whose psak says to adopt only a Jewish child. it is basically impossible.

Open/knowing the parents adoption is something not happening by me so can't comment on it from relatives or friends experience but to me it sounds like a nightmare to have the other parent(s) around.

People who didn't want one of their children sometimes like to belittle IF. Not the first time I see.

chani8

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 6:26 am

The wait for a newborn is about 6 to 8 years. There are many young children needing homes, however. I think with all adoptive kids, it's likely there will be issues with RAD and/or exposure to alcohol and some PTSD.

Usually it's sibling sets that get stuck in the children home, unadoptable for life.

There is also (rare but does happen) the issue with mamzer. Most charedi couples prefer non-jewish babies for that reason.

It's hard to find families for half arab but all jewish babies.

The issue with kohen status is helpful. Thanks. Of course, they could choose to adopt only girls.

The fast track to getting placed with a baby or young child is to become a foster care family. In that case, if you decide you don't want the child, you can give it back, and often they become adoptable to that foster family after a couple of years. OTOH, they can also be placed back with their biological family which is the risk most people don't want to take. Here in Israel they try to be careful to place potential-adoptive-foster families with highly-likely-to-be-adoptable children.

Ruchel

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 6:52 am

Thing is, if you tell them only girls, they'll think you're not thaaaat motivated and if a boy comes up and you say no you are back "under all the files", square one. They may even wonder why, unless maybe you have tons of boys. Maybe.

Same if you are fussy about origin (for national). International, you choose the country- not the ethnicity inside. And as you don't know the parents there is a risk of being Jewish in some countries, halachically, hence of mamzerus of wtv.

Yes, diseases, alcohol.. depending on origin (social, ethnic, country).

I (unfortunately) looked into this +++ several years ago.

A sib set is easier to take, you get "on the top of the files", but harder to take care of, one at least is "not a baby", and they may require one room per child (cuz yeah, they didn't share a room and more in the children home.....). IMHO it's easier for a child to learn a whole new culture than just take a local one and stop Xmas and "make it Jewish". We planned to go for cheapest and quickest international (we probably was Africa or south america). Things change quick, you have to be on top of it (bh I'm not anymore). OUAT many ppl adopted from China (very harsh now) and Ukraine (some bad stories made them much less eager).

amother

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 7:19 am

notshanarishona wrote:

Just a few reasons off the top of my head

1- Adoption does not have the same emotional satisfaction of giving birth to a child.
2- It is very hard to adopt babies. You are normally adopting an older child with emotional scars depending on the reason for adoption
3- Adoption takes years
4- Adoption costs a fortune
5- You/ your husband won't be able to touch the child after a certain times. Many complicated halachic sheialos with yichud and negiah.
6- It is hard to find a Jewish child and adopting a non Jew is controversial
7-I could go on and on..

Notshanarishona, there is so much nonsense written here, I am just wondering where you got all this information from? I am an adoptive parent, so let me set the record straight:

1 - Since I adopted my first child and then gave birth to my second child, I think I have the right to say that this is absolute nonsense. Do you think that when you adopt a child, you simply make a phone call, fill in a form and bam - you have a baby? Yeah, then it would be "emotionally unsatisfying".
After the blood sweat and tears that we put into our adoption process, that feeling of utter euphoria when we held our baby for the first time was so much more "emotionally satisfying" than when I first held my baby-by-birth. and bringing up a child that we had to put so much effort into bringing into our family? And watching her grow and develop into the most amazing human being despite her difficult start in life? nothing more emotionally satisfying than that. As we say, anyone can give birth, you don't have to be anything special to do so... but it takes someone extra special to be able to adopt. Believe me, it is FAR more emotionally satisfying for us knowing that we did something that not everyone can just do. anyone can build a family through birth... but building through adoption? which took actual involvement and input from both of us together? it was the most bonding and emotionally satisfying thing we could ever do as a couple. We look at our child and feel this sense of pride knowing we did something special here as a family. We worked hard for her, we worked together for her. We put in tremendous amounts of efforts for her. Doesn't get better than that.

2. I don't know what country you are talking about here, but we adopted in the USA and there are plenty of newborns. If you are talking about another country I apologize (although you should have made that clear) but in the USA it is not difficult at all to adopt a newborn.

3. It took us 9 months. Again, what country are you talking about? Please don't make these statements without clarifying.

4. Absolutely true - but not more expensive than a few rounds of IVF. Most couples I know are adopting due to infertility, so for them its money they would have to spend on having a child anyway. With IVF you are not sure if the money you are spending will end in a child, with adoption you can be almost sure that it will.

5. Again, absolute nonsense. I am sure some Rabbonim do not allow touching or yichud, but most do. Have you ever spoken to a rov about this before you made this blanket statement? Or are you just basing this on one persons situation? R'Moshe Feinstein among many others allow normal contact, touching, hugging, kissing and yichud as you have with a child born to you. We (and most adoptive families I know) have NOT ONE "complicating" halocho or sheilas and have an absolute normal relationship with our children as if they are born to us. I would love to know where you are getting your info from.

6 - It IS very hard to find a jewish child. This is the only true thing you have written. Adopting a non jew is not controversial for many. For you it might be, but again, don't make blanket statements.

7. You can go on and on? I am curious what other points you have....

notshanarishona

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 7:29 am

amother wrote:

I am sorry- Didn't mean to offend anyone.
I was writing from my personal view about how I felt when we looked into the idea of adoption.

My main point was not to offend anyone who adopts. I think it is amazing of you to be able to do it and I am so happy that things worked out for you.
I was trying to explain the perspective of why someone wouldn't want too.
Maybe I was looking into things in a different way than you did.
For example, one organization that we asked about Jewish newborn estimated 2 years to get one and that was in the states.

.

amother

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 7:58 am

Notshanarishona, no offence taken at all. I just get concerned when people have very misguided views and ideas regarding adoption (the most popular one being no yichud or touching which is far from the truth) and I get worried that people who are thinking about adoption would get put off the idea from reading and hearing things which are not true.

You are 100% correct that to adopt a jewish baby is a long and difficult process. that was the only point you made which is correct, and I said that in my other post, so telling me that you were told that doesn't defend your other points.

I keep hearing all sorts of garbage related to adoption and I take absolutely no offence... I just get worried that it will put someone off. So please be careful in future. If you would like to tell us where you heard all your other info I would be very interested.

And I am still interested in hearing your other points that you mentioned in number 7.

Ruchel

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 8:02 am

Yes, it depends on countries.

That said, poor people can have babies naturally but mostly, just won't be able to adopt.

There are stories of people who, without or with protektzia, get a healthy newborn as 23 yr olds in 6 months... and there are stories of people who still wait for a healthy under 2 after 10 years, and everything in between.

I had the stats for a baby under 2 in my country, it was maybe 8 (?). Hence most go international.

The KOhen problem is lighter now that people don't hide anymore (at least to the child) that there is an adoption. Same for "needing" a white child. Especially when it becomes so very long and hard and expensive (demanding countries), many reconsider the white thing.

Places were you can go and look yourself for a pregnant teen mom (say) are maybe easier than we everything is gov't regulated.

Frumdoc

Thu, Nov 20 2014, 9:30 am

amother wrote:

So the comparative response to the "IF can adopt" for your friend's situation would be "She should just give them away, plenty of people looking for a healthy baby".

But somehow this wouldn't happen, unlike the many many times IF people are told "Just adopt, what is the big deal".

I am not an advocate of pain comparison, but we should all work on being more empathetic and not saying stupidly hurtful things to others and justifying it by "My pain is worse than hers".