GRRR Neighbor vent!

Emotional

Fri, Jan 02 2015, 8:30 am

amother wrote:

There is a difference between normal control and abuse. It is not normal to allow your children to screech and bang on your bedroom door every night. You control them so your neighbor has peace immediately. You teach and train at your leisure. These kids obviously weren't taught and trained properly. I would not tolerate my children screeching and banging on my door and I am certainly not an abusive person. I tell my children that certain behaviors are unacceptable without hitting or screaming.

Is this the same amother from the thread a few months ago "Do you have a lock on your bedroom door?" Are you the one who simply can't understand why locks are necessary if all you have to do is "train" your children? In fact, your children are finished products and perfectly behaved by toddlerhood?

amother

Fri, Jan 02 2015, 8:59 am

Emotional wrote:

Yes. I now have a lock in my bedroom door. My children never once violated my privacy.

I don't understand the frum world at all in that they let their children make noise and disturb neighbors. I also don't understand going out to nice restaurants and there are noisy children at the next table and the parents are so happy they are out that they are letting their children behave like it is a playground.

While children aren't robots, they need to learn respect for others. The fact the neighbor is a non jew seems significant to OP like they deserve less consideration. During carpool children didn't want to be buckled in. I had several parents explain it was easier to let them stand. Just as my children understand car seats are not optional neither is disturbing our neighbors. It is a given that we respect all. Why does respecting neighbors and not letting kids screech and bang in the bedroom door nightly equal abuse. I say the inverse equals bad parenting. Non jews deserve quiet also.

mommy3b2c

Fri, Jan 02 2015, 9:07 am

amother wrote:

Totally. It's those neglectful frum parents. I wish frum kids could be like non frum kids who never cry or tantrum.

amother

Fri, Jan 02 2015, 9:11 am

If I were the neighbor hearing nightly meltdowns from your kid I would be fed up too.

Bribe the kids to go to bed nicely. Start with some little prize that they get if they rest quietly for 20 minutes after you put them to bed...then 30...then 40...gradually it becomes a treat they can have with breakfast if they go to sleep nicely. If one kid earns the prize and the other doesn't, that's great - next night they will both be trying hard. You can get cheapo dollar store prizes (like little plastic animals that you give out one at a time) and they'll be excited.

Possibly you also need to be firmer with your children. No long drawn out bedtimes, and get good at being kind but firm. This takes practice and confidence.

Agree that you should move your kids into the bedroom. Just put those things on your dresser drawers that prevent kids from opening them.

Chayalle

Fri, Jan 02 2015, 9:31 am

Rubber Ducky wrote:

Perhaps amother who controllled her kids has unusually docile children. In my experience, most children act like... children.

This.

My oldest two DD's were generally easy-going, well-behaved, toe-the-line kind of kids. It wasn't that complicated to train them to follow instructions, behave, and keep boundaries.

Along came my youngest - a delicious independent thinker who has her own ideas about her life. Training her to listen without squashing her nature has been much more challenging, and I begin to understand parents of non-puppet children. Until you have one like this of your own, you have to be really open-minded, or you don't get it.

Barbara

Fri, Jan 02 2015, 9:33 am

MaBelleVie wrote:

Oh for goodness sake, amother who has no reason to be amother. How far does this extend? Did your newborns also never cry? What about toddlers? Are you the first person in the world to figure out how to avoid a child tantruming ever? Pleas.

Kids cry. Sometimes.

Kids tantrum. Sometimes.

And the noises can be annoying to others.

The question is how often it happens, and where it happens.

OP is in a one-bedroom apartment, meaning that her neighbors can hear what is going on in her apartment. Does that mean that her kids should never cry? Of course not. But OP mentions that she can hear the neighbor's "little yippy dog" and hear the neighbors arguing. That means that they can hear her child's "loud and annoying cry" (which is surely more annoying to others than to OP) clearly. And they can definitely hear screaming and banging on doors. So if this is a regular (more than, say, once a week, and for more than 5 or 10 minutes at a time) thing, then yes, OP does need to make special efforts.

I'm not there. I don't know what will help most. If laying down with the child until he falls asleep is what obviates the issue, then perhaps she needs to do that, however annoying that is for her. (BTDT) Moving the child to the bedroom and sound proofing by making sure the room is carpeted, and hanging curtains (or old comforters) on walls, would also help.

OTOH, if the neighbors are upset about rare occurrences, tough luck.

debsey

Fri, Jan 02 2015, 11:49 am

amother wrote:

Had to get this off my chest. We live in a less-than-ideal situation in a 1bdrm apt w/2 kids, the 2 kids sleep in a little cordoned off "bedroom" in the living room. The older one (4) has a short temper and a speech issue which makes his cry sound very grating, so he often has melt downs that are very loud. He doesn't like to go to sleep and it takes him forever to go to sleep. He insists on me staying with him until he falls asleep, and he protests everytime I get up to leave.

Tonight after several ultimatums to go to lie down or I was going to my room (over an hour and a half after I put them in bed following our bed time routine), I finally counted to 10, he didn't listen so I went to my room and closed the door. Which caused both of them to come banging on my door screaming. Not 2 minutes later our only non-Jewish neighbor (who has grown children) comes knocking at our door, asking why my kids are screaming "Every night" and that it "breaks her heart" to hear my kids screaming, and that she tought we weren't home so she was going to call the police!!! Granted we are planning to move later on this year especially b/c we have 1 more on the way, but what am I supposed to do? Let my kids dictate my evening for the next 6 months?! We have a bedtime routine, we tried melatonin w/ mixed results, we put lavender oil to help them relax, I have a relaxation ocean waves CD which played in its entirety tonight without them falling asleep. How can I get my neighbor off my case?

FTR we've heard PLENTY of disturbing screaming from their apartment the first few years of our marriage. This neighbor kicks her husband out and we used to hear him sobbing through the walls. Plus we hear their little ---"yippy" dog all evening--but that dog seems to have saved their marriage.

This is going to sound weird, but here's what I'd do:

Bake some chocolate chip cookies. Bring them to the neighbor. Tell her "I'm trying this new technique to get my kids to sleep at night, and I'm sorry the noise is disturbing you. You seem like a smart woman. Do you have any advice for me? My daughter just WON'T go to sleep, no matter what I do."

People love being asked for advice. It puts the neighbor on "Team You" and makes her a part of your struggle. This should lower the chillul Hashem aspect and get her off the "I'm calling the cops" threat.

For you, I suggest you read the book "Sleepless in America" by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka (the same lady who wrote "The Spirited Child"). She has a lot of good suggestions for helping kids who struggle with sleep actually settle for the night.

Chayalle

Fri, Jan 02 2015, 11:55 am

debsey wrote:

This is actually great advice.

I once had a situation where a family member's difficult child was bullying mine, and the parent would get very defensive. I asked a professional friend for advice, and she told me to befriend the bully and ask him to be my child's bodyguard. In this way, he started to look out for her and make sure that no one "else" started up with her. It actually worked.

Though the neighbor is not a bully so to speak, enlisting her help with the problem could actually work.

amother

Fri, Jan 02 2015, 12:08 pm

amother wrote:

I'm going to presume you never had a child with odd or add. This has nothing to do with how you parent, they are much harder to deal with. I know that my first is add and probably odd so just because he has meltdowns... Means I don't know how to parent my children? The others aren't like that but you woulnt know since he overpowers everyone in the noise department.

amother

Fri, Jan 02 2015, 12:14 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

One of my children has ADHD and is on the spectrum plus I resisted medication. I also had a child in a painful brace and another with a painful tumor who had to be held 18 hrs a day or would scream. I did what I had to do which was hold my baby so she didn't scream and disturb the neighbors. The baby with the brace, I woke up periodically through every single night to adjust it and put dancer's cotton and cream on the skin lesions. I had a dying husband who was absolutely no help. If course it was like having additional children because he had to be taken care of like an infant. Does that change anything?

Children can learn boundaries. OP was venting about the neighbor who is not wrong to be upset with nightly door banging and screaming.

vintagebknyc

Fri, Jan 02 2015, 12:16 pm

Chayalle wrote:

it is a good idea, because it shows you want to respect their needs.

I'd go further and give them a white noise machine as well, and remind them you'll be leaving in a few months.

Last edited by vintagebknyc on Fri, Jan 02 2015, 12:19 pm; edited 1 time in total

Dandelion1

Fri, Jan 02 2015, 12:18 pm

amother wrote:

I'm so sorry amother, that you and your family have seen such suffering. May your children's futures and your own hold only health and happiness.

seeker

Fri, Jan 02 2015, 12:41 pm

Hugs, OP. It sounds like you're having a rough time. There have been some interesting perspectives in this thread. I just wanted to add one point that jumped out at me, being in a similar situation (I also have a 4 year old, a younger child, a 1-bedroom apartment with kid-sleepage in living room due mostly to size, and one child who often has an especially hard time falling/staying asleep)

One big difference: I do not put the kids to sleep together. This makes my bedtime routine take longer but it works out better overall. The timing does overlap, often #1 is still awake when I'm putting #2 to sleep, but I certainly would never have a situation where both kids are screaming at my door at once - if one needs to be left for either disciplinary or cooling-down reasons, I take the other into the bedroom with me. Two kids screaming at once is not only louder for the neighbors, but more likely to escalate each other rather than giving either of them a chance to calm down. I know you feel like you've tried everything, but maybe you could consider ways to restructure your bedtime routine since even though you say vaguely that you "have a routine" it doesn't seem to be working well enough for you.

You also didn't mention how long you allowed the screaming to go on that made your neighbor think you weren't home. If it was 5 minutes, OK, 10 also maybe OK, but if it was really going on and on then perhaps your timeout was too long. Leaving the room may have been an appropriate choice at the time but you can't just let the kids stay in that state for very long. You removed yourself as a consequence, a few minutes is appropriate, and then you need to get back in there and do damage control. Again this will be easier if only one child was involved.

Small note about lavender oil: This is not so very likely because for the vast majority of people lavender is relaxing, but sometimes people can have opposite reactions to these things and I personally find it makes me more wound-up instead. Consider experimenting with different types of oils because different ones work for different people. I hear Roman chamomile is very good for sleep.

MaBelleVie

Fri, Jan 02 2015, 12:52 pm

amother wrote:

I'm sorry that you had to deal with all of that. Really, I'm not being snarky. I just don't really see how it relates to op or kids learning boundaries. And she didn't say that her kids really do bang on her door and scream nightly, just that the neighbor accused her of nightly crying.

I also think it's important to keep kids under control as much as possible when neighbors can be disturbed. Trust me, I go to great lengths to do it myself. When I had a baby I emailed my neighbor to let him know, and in that email I also apologized in advance for the inevitable crying that I anticipated. When the baby wakes up I immediately tend to her and do my best to stop crying. But- she is still colicky. So she cries a lot. Even when I hold her and rock her and basically stand on my head to calm her down. That's life.

amother

Fri, Jan 02 2015, 1:48 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

You asked. I answered.

There is a big difference between a 4 year old and a newborn. It is inevitable as you say that a newborn will cry. The scene OP described is not inevitable. I have patience for a baby crying. I wouldn't have patience living next door to that mishegas. It is wrong to expect anyone including a non Jew to put up with that.

I think it is wrong to blame the neighbor for wanting peace.