Father Asks School To Bar Unvaccinated Children for son

eli7

Thu, Jan 29 2015, 3:21 am

amother wrote:

There are lots of things on vaccine schedule that aren't as dangerous as polio. My pet peeve-hep b which they give to 2 day old babies. Why? Because they failed to decrease rate of hep b by only targeting high risk populations. Your 2 day old baby is only at risk of getting hep b if you have it or if they are having relations or using IV drugs. So why are you giving it? It's not even for herd immunity. And by the time they ARE at risk the immunity likely wore off without them knowing it so they get infected (assuming they ever have relations or use IV drugs).

This is not accurate. Hepatitis is extremely dangerous, particularly when it is contracted in infancy.

Hepatitis B is transmitted through blood-to-blood contact, but not only through relations or IV drug use. Health care workers can be exposed, and so can anyone in a hospital, including newborns. Boosters are given later to keep the immunity from wearing off.

See this link for more information: http://www.who.int/mediacentre.....4/en/

Raisin

Thu, Jan 29 2015, 4:11 am

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

amother who responded to my post -- I tried quoting you but because of the nested quotes, it cut off most of your post, so I will try to do it this way!

Quote:

Most adults are still have immunity from the MMR. Its other vaccines that immunity is lost to. I think there is still strong support that two MMR vaccinations can support life-long immunity. (Except old-age which is a different story.)

I know several mothers who found out during pregnancy blood work that their measles immunity had worn off substantially (not rubella which we know also wears off, and not mumps which is less effective anyway). So it must happen, and these are in young 20 and 30 yos. (Most people over 60/70 may have natural immunity, I am not sure of the statistics.)

And the fact that they have less antibodies to give over to their babies even with decent titers not requiring a booster also shows immunity isn't as strong as natural immunity, I would think?

Why do you think Ebola vaccines were promoted by those who are not pro vax? All the anti-vaxers I know did NOT embrace the thought of an ebola vaccine.

I had chicken pox as a child, and my fully breastfed baby caught it at 7 months, just a couple of weeks after he started solids. So this maternal immunity only goes so far. And my sister had a similar experience with her baby. I do think my baby was exposed to chicken pox at 3 months and did not catch it. (hardly anyone is vaccinated against chicken pox where I live)

amother

Thu, Jan 29 2015, 5:29 am

I often wonder what proportion of the anti vax frum cohort had a decent secular and science education. It often seems that the anti vax brigade is loudest in the charedi communities who are strongly against education so don't actually understand the science or math behind much of modern medicine.

It would be interesting to see a statistical analysis in the frum world between science education and vaccination status.

Because it seems to me that many who are anti are those who believe in the type of magical thinking encouraged in modern charediville, such that segulas are widespread and believed to be more powerful than science, that money falls from the sky with no financial planning and minimal histadlus and that the terrible disasters that befall klal yisroel correlate directly with the average sheital length.

Anti rationalist.

Which begs the question, why do any of you have health insurance, or seek orthodox medical assistance for anything? If you don't believe in science, or the statistical basis of medical research, or germ theory, and believe that garlic and castor oil will cure all ills, at least you should be consistent and not seek to change Hashem's will when he makes you sick.

If Hashem gave you a perfect body and you don't wish to ever contaminate it, why would you ever take any medicine, or ever see a doctor about anything, it is surely just Hashem's decree and can only be addressed or changed by davening or doing more mitzvot?

You really should have more emunah and stop paying health insurance, as it is probably demonstrating a serious lack of emunah in Hashem that He will protect you from all illness, and reject all healthcare completely.

ora_43

Thu, Jan 29 2015, 5:57 am

amother wrote:

Did you read the OP? The issue is with anti-vax mentality in well-to-do communities in California. Which I think right there is the answer to whether this is a specifically religious or non-secular-education issue.

I do think a strong science education makes a difference, but a secular education in general, less so.

I think it's more an issue of group think, to some extent. Just like in most communities, most people vaccinate because "everyone" does it and because "everyone knows" it's better for kids (the average vaccine user doesn't have a particularly impressive science background either, IME - most people don't, self included), in some communities, many people don't vaccinate because "everyone knows" vaccines are harmful and/or unnecessary.

amother

Thu, Jan 29 2015, 6:08 am

eli7 wrote:

correct. If caught as a child it can be very dangerous but if you don't have it you infant is at virtually zero risk of getting it (as an infant). The vast majority of people who get it don't get it from hospitals. There is also treatment if you know your exposed. And the first dose alone doesn't make you immune. And as to the reason it's given--it used to be on th vaccine insert saying exactly what I said in my previous post so go fight that.

amother

Thu, Jan 29 2015, 6:41 am

imaima wrote:

And now that we are not in the safe haven, may I add a huge pet peeve of mine - "every parent should do their own homework".
I just can't wrap my mind around it.
I have done my homework by choosing my pediatrician. I surely hope that HE did his homework.

Does anyone really believe that a housewife who knows how to google (and I'm talking about myself here) can do a better research than someone with many years of college, who regularly goes to medical congresses and refreshes his knowledge?

As someone who has a degree and hopes that she has competence in her field, I am offended by the idea, that you can do a proper (independent!) research by googling.

There is a lot of sense in what you're saying BUT consider the fact that text books used by medical students are written/ published by drug companies. That worries me. A lot.

amother

Thu, Jan 29 2015, 7:51 am

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

amother who responded to my post -- I tried quoting you but because of the nested quotes, it cut off most of your post, so I will try to do it this way!

Quote:

Yes, there are some whose immunity wains. But, the majority of the population maintain it. Jews tend to have this problem more than the general population since we have intermarried within ourselves and passed down multiple mutations plus multiple pregnancies. I have this problem; I have low antibody titers. Systemic antibodies are not the only measure to know if a person still has a memory response. It is the most convenient and cheapest -running an ELISA is easy. T-cell mediated immune memory and IgA is not really passed to our offspring since they do not pass placenta. So, we measure IgG because it does. But, there is way more to immunity than IgG. Our infants even with maternal IgG are still at risk because IgG is all they have from us. Pertussis clearance is only partially dependent on IgG.

No, the 60 to 70 year olds loose immunity to most things -happens to everyone as they age. Both natural or vaccine induced wain. I disagree that natural immunity is always better. Some of these bugs are great at suppressing our immune responses. For example, there is a certain colonization factor of pertussis is able to prevent a long-term immune response. So, natural immunity is not enough.

People who I knew that were vaccine hesitant were all of a sudden interested in how to treat Ebola and how to confine to Africa. They were even asking about vaccination. I saw a different scenario than I usually do.

anon for this

Thu, Jan 29 2015, 7:58 am

Think1st wrote:

Have you ever seen an un-vaccinted child allergic to nuts ? or any other food allergy. what is the percentage of cancer patients amongst the vaccinated VS un-vaxed ?

Think1st, I was wondering about allergy rates in unvaccinated children, so I googled those words, and my first hit was a link to the following study comparing vaccinated and unvaccinated children:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pm.....7555/

I learned that vaccinated and unvaccinated children in the study were equally likely to suffer from bronchial asthma, atopic eczema, and allergic rhinoconjunctivitis. There were no significant differences in the rates of GI infections, obstructive bronchitis, pneumonia and otitis media, heart disease, anemia, epilepsy, and ADHD either. The unvaccinated children tended to be of higher socioeconomic status than the vaccinated ones (immigrants were excluded from the study, because their records may be incomplete).

Think1st, I must say that I'm a little surprised that you didn't research this on your own before posting your question, especially since you seem to be very concerned with vaccine safety. Suspicious people might even suspect you of making inflammatory posts in the guise of "just asking questions". In any case, I'm glad I was able to help, and hope this answered some of your questions.

amother

Thu, Jan 29 2015, 9:20 am

amother wrote:

On the contrary, a lot of people who don't vaccinate are intellectuals and independent thinkers who don't follow the crowd. They are educated and usually upper middle class professionals (yuppie type people). And plenty of non Jews who don't believe in God or organized religion don't vaccinate (for example the people in the Bay Area this man talks about). I don't vax and I have my Masters degree and went to academic schools. I didn't specialize in the sciences but I definitely got a good thorough education in science. I even learned evolution and the reproductive system (gasp). Vaccine injuries exist and vaccines are not 100 percent safe. Not everybody is comfortable injecting them into their bodies to protect a small margin of people that have compromised immune systems. If you do good research you will see that their are many issues with vaccines that doctors fail to mention. And yes call it selfish but not everybody is willing to put their child's health at risk to "save "a minor amount of elderly people/ infants that with such compromised immune systems are at risk of getting sick anyway. The amounts of people that will actually die from one of these diseases is so minor and very blown out of proportion. I know 2-3 people personally who had horrible reactions to vaccines. I don't know anyone in real life who died directly from measles or chicken pox or hepatitis etc. if you do, I would like to hear those real life stories about people you actually know first hand, not articles thrown around Facebook. I would like to know if anyone here knows someone first hand who was unvaccinated and died from hep b.

southernbubby

Thu, Jan 29 2015, 9:32 am

To me, the vaccine issue is sort of a social contract; the same sort of social contract that says that we don't send children to school if they have fever or diarrhea. It means that we don't view ourselves as separate from others and entitled to put our own welfare above the welfare of others.
We also have to realize that the world today is a smaller place. I was immunized prior to traveling to EY because the CDC determined that some illnesses such as polio, were making a comeback in EY. I made a stop in Istanbul where the illnesses that we commonly consider eradicated, are still occurring. Diphtheria rarely occurs in countries that vaccinate but there are thousands of cases a year of it in India. People from India travel to Turkey and so did I so I wanted to get vaccinated as a precaution.
Tetanus is rare today in the US but most deaths from tetanus were in the elderly. http://www.nvic.org/Vaccines-a......aspx

And according to this recent article, there are approx 1 million cases a year of whooping cough in the US, mainly in teens and adults. http://www.healthychildren.org......aspx

Barbara

Thu, Jan 29 2015, 9:37 am

amother wrote:

You discount the risk to your own children from vaccine preventable diseases.

Would you be willing to deliberately expose your children to polio? Small pox?

In 1980, before widespread vaccination, measles caused an estimated 2.6 million deaths annually. In the US, between 3 and 4 million people contracted measles each year; of those, 48,000 were hospitalized, 4,000 developed the life-threatening brain condition encephalitis, and 400 to 500 died. (Stats from, of all places, Mother Jones.) In the current outbreak, 25% of its victims are hospitalized. Hey, its going around in California. Go expose your children, and let me know how "blown out of proportion" it is.

If not, what you are doing is relying upon others to vaccinate their children, so that your children can benefit from the herd immunity.

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea. In order to attend school, you must show that your child has immunity to vaccine preventable disease (or, for those who dont' develop immunity, has had the vaccine or disease), unless there is a verfiable medical exemption, strictly construed. You don't want to inoculate against polio? Expose your kids to it. I'm sure that they'll recover just fine. After all, you've told me that the risk from it is blown out or proportion. My only caveat would be that medical insurance not cover hospitalizations as a result of this exposure. No worried. That risk is just overblown.

Barbara

Thu, Jan 29 2015, 9:52 am

Ruchel wrote:

Southernbubby has it right. It's a social contract. But rightfully or not many now don't believe in duty to society.

Yes and no.

The way I see it, old folks like me remember how bad these diseases were, and want to protect our children from it.

Younger people view them as mythical, hypothetical. Their incidence has been greatly reduced by vaccines. Instead of weighing "this is a very bad disease that causes serious complications, and that my child will inevitably contract" against "very small risk of vaccine-related injury," they say "how bad could it be, and anyway, almost no one gets it" against the risk of vaccine-related injury.

In other word, they're telling other people "you vaccinate your kid, I'll take the benefit of herd immunity, and tell you that I'm a better person than you because I don't vaccinate."

amother

Thu, Jan 29 2015, 10:05 am

Barbara wrote:

Yes it's pretty obvious that people who don't vaccinate would rather take the risk of possibly contracting the diseases than take the risk of giving the vaccine. No I won't expose myself or my kids to sick people who have contagious diseases whether they are vaccinated or not. I will stay away from sick people and hope parents have enough common sense not to send their children to school when they are sick. There are many things one can do to help the greater welfare of society but many people will not do it at their own expense or at the expense of their families. People can stop driving cars or at least drive a Prius to prevent polluting the earth. Most people don't. There are lots of things people do that effect and are harmful to the universe and the people in it.

southernbubby

Thu, Jan 29 2015, 10:18 am

amother wrote:

The social contract does not require giving up cars or driving a Prius. One example of the social contract is the elimination of smoking in public areas.

Notsobusy

Thu, Jan 29 2015, 10:39 am

amother wrote:

It would be interesting to see where you got your information that the anti vax brigade is loudest in the charedi communities who are strongly against education. I can't think of anyone I know in my very charedi, uneducated (in your eyes) community, from my very large extended family, to friends, to coworkers, to many different neighbors I have had over the years, who don't vax. If any of them don't vax, they don't talk about it because they know all the other uneducated charedis would be really upset at them.

In every community the anti vax brigade is usually louder than the those of us who do vax, simply because we're not out to prove anything.

Hashem_Yaazor

Thu, Jan 29 2015, 10:40 am

goodmorning wrote:

The question was what level of danger does one have to submit to (themselves/child) to protect a second person from a stronger level of danger.

The answer that he gave is that all activities carry with them some measure of risk. However, activities that are frequently engaged in without heed for the dangers are considered halachically safe under the clause of "shomer pesayim Hashem" -- Hashem will watch out for you if you engage in them. It doesn't mean that they are risk-free; it means that you don't have to worry about the risk. This Rav said that if an activity is within this pool, one is obligated to engage in it in order to do a mitzvah, and saving a life would be good reason to do so. (He provided a proof from milah, in which we ignore certain dangers because they fall under the clause of "shomer pesayim.")

Obviously, which dangers are common enough to be considered "shomer pesayim" is the big question. He gave crossing the street as an example, and he said that he would apply that even to crossing a particular very busy street in Manhattan, which has almost certainly had some pedestrian fatalities over the past few years. His opinion is that vaccinations fall into this pool as well. You may disagree. Smile

Ah, so he is saying people who VACCINATE are 'pesoyim'. Not as a put down but as a way of showing there is protection despite the danger.

Amother was saying people who DON'T vaccinate are pesoyim, fools...as a put down.