Father Asks School To Bar Unvaccinated Children for son

amother

Wed, Jan 28 2015, 9:44 pm

Think1st wrote:

Have you ever seen an un-vaccinted child allergic to nuts ? or any other food allergy. what is the percentage of cancer patients amongst the vaccinated VS un-vaxed ?

Hashem Yaazor,

Earlier today, you told me that you would edit any posts accusing pro-vax parents whose children have r"l lo aleinu cancer of causing their child's cancer via vaccination if you have moderator privileges in the relevant forum.

I reported Think1st's post several hours ago. It is no longer flagged for moderation, however the original post remains unedited. Do you have moderator privileges in this thread? (I honestly don't know.)

If you have moderator privileges, please edit Think1st's posts accordingly. If not (or if you do and unflagged without editing) then please concede that there is a double standard on Imamother, and that anti-vax posters are allowed to attack pro-vax mothers for allegedly r"l lo aleinu inflicting autism and cancer onto their children.

As I said earlier, Yael is perfectly entitled to have this double standard on her site. It just irks me that moderators won't acknowledge that the double standard exists.

amother

Wed, Jan 28 2015, 10:01 pm

Just a few thoughts since I enjoy your posts!

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

However, since many adults no longer have immunity to things they were vaccinated for, it's a little presumptuous to just point the finger at non-vaccinated children. And not everyone can be vaccinated, and that is known too. The father wants more people to vaccinate in the hopes of increasing "herd immunity" but it still may not help his son.

Most adults are still have immunity from the MMR. Its other vaccines that immunity is lost to. I think there is still strong support that two MMR vaccinations can support life-long immunity. (Except old-age which is a different story.)

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

But then it turns into sky's question about little babies at home with measles going around. Well, it used to be little babies were protected from their mothers' antibodies for the measles. Because of the vaccine, almost no one giving birth these days had the measles and are not conferring the same level of antibodies to their children as they were with natural immunity, making more babies at risk.

This immunity wains pretty quick unfortunately. There is this unfortunately a window of opportunity where maternal measles antibody wains and before vaccination begins. These infants are at highest risk.

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

It's way too grey of an area for us to easily determine what is the most ethical. Because measles was never eradicated DESPITE a very high vaccination rate (the rate stated to be high enough for "herd immunity") and there have always been cases in the US. I counted something like 1500 in the past decade, which is significantly down, but is always a risk either way.

One day, be"h, the whole world will be successfully vaccinated and then it can be eradicated. The problem is that the vaccination rate is not high enough throughout the entire world to eradicate. The hope was to eradicate it within (I think) another 25 years. But, it doesn't look like it will be successful. The vaccination rate is too low for that to occur.

My rant: Vaccination worked to drive small pox off the planet. Just a few months ago, the whole world was desperate for an Ebola vaccine -yes, even those who don't agree with vaccination. The simple truth is everything is run by fear. Here in the comfort of the USA, we don't fear death. We just don't see it b"h. If we were to see something like the polio outbreak our grandparents saw, maybe we would fear the pathogens more than the vaccines.

amother

Wed, Jan 28 2015, 10:03 pm

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

Yael cleared it. You are reading way too much into Think1st's post.
She asked a question, asking if anyone has relevant statistics showing the rates of cancer in vaccinated and unvaccinated populations.
She didn't imply that someone CH"V caused their child's cancer through vaccination.

I think you're being too sensitive about this.

This was not an attack. If you have information showing how her theory is wrong, by all means, respond.

If that was a pro-vax poster asking about unvaccinated Orthodox Jewish kids dying of diptheria (my personal VPD of choice), it would be edited. And you know it.

In completely unrelated news, every day I daven that "shomer Hashem pesayim" extends to the b'nei pesayim. Let's see if you let that quote stand, or decide to read into it (note that "pesayim" is undefined) and edit accordingly.

Hashem_Yaazor

Wed, Jan 28 2015, 10:05 pm

And this is my personal opinion, not as a mod: one cannot deny a claim outright without actually looking into it, and still consider themselves to be educated on a subject. If a claim comes up, look up the data yourself, and you will be all the more wiser for it. I think we have reached where we have because many parents are questioning more due to the automatic quick denial of their concerns.

The cancer/vaccination link that Think1st is positing is not something to be outraged over. It's something to either dismiss (and opt not to look into) or look into and then dismiss or accept if you find that information.

amother

Wed, Jan 28 2015, 10:09 pm

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

Baruch Hashem you have never had a poster on one of these threads accuse you of making your children sick, without the option of deleting the attack out of existence. I write that in all sincerity.

Your actions today (or lack thereof) have repeatedly proven my point. I'm done.

Hashem_Yaazor

Wed, Jan 28 2015, 10:10 pm

amother who responded to my post -- I tried quoting you but because of the nested quotes, it cut off most of your post, so I will try to do it this way!

Quote:

I know several mothers who found out during pregnancy blood work that their measles immunity had worn off substantially (not rubella which we know also wears off, and not mumps which is less effective anyway). So it must happen, and these are in young 20 and 30 yos. (Most people over 60/70 may have natural immunity, I am not sure of the statistics.)

And the fact that they have less antibodies to give over to their babies even with decent titers not requiring a booster also shows immunity isn't as strong as natural immunity, I would think?

Why do you think Ebola vaccines were promoted by those who are not pro vax? All the anti-vaxers I know did NOT embrace the thought of an ebola vaccine.

Hashem_Yaazor

Wed, Jan 28 2015, 10:18 pm

amother wrote:

Please, I have no idea what you are talking about. I have never in my memory edited a post because of pro-vaccination status. Ever. Why would I do such a thing? Again, if you have issues with any modding, bring it up with Yael.
No one would edit a respectfully worded post about unvaccinated children dying. That is absurd.

(There are no anti-vax moderators on this board that I know of, even if we had biased mods!)

I am leaving your quote and would never think of editing it, but I don't consider it respectful to call other people pesayim. Just to be honest. I actually find those who do not vaccinate to usually (not always, but usually) be quite educated and making their decisions for solid reasons.

amother

Wed, Jan 28 2015, 10:19 pm

amother wrote:

Just a few thoughts since I enjoy your posts!
My rant: Vaccination worked to drive small pox off the planet. Just a few months ago, the whole world was desperate for an Ebola vaccine -yes, even those who don't agree with vaccination. The simple truth is everything is run by fear. Here in the comfort of the USA, we don't fear death. We just don't see it b"h. If we were to see something like the polio outbreak our grandparents saw, maybe we would fear the pathogens more than the vaccines.

There are lots of things on vaccine schedule that aren't as dangerous as polio. My pet peeve-hep b which they give to 2 day old babies. Why? Because they failed to decrease rate of hep b by only targeting high risk populations. Your 2 day old baby is only at risk of getting hep b if you have it or if they are having relations or using IV drugs. So why are you giving it? It's not even for herd immunity. And by the time they ARE at risk the immunity likely wore off without them knowing it so they get infected (assuming they ever have relations or use IV drugs).

Hashem_Yaazor

Wed, Jan 28 2015, 10:20 pm

yogabird wrote:

Not so sure about that. The immune system is generally considered fully reconstituted 6-8 months after receiving chemotherapy that is completely myeloablative, or IOW literally wipes out the entire immune system. And most common chemo regimens are not nearly as intense as that.

I think the problem isn't so much the chemo after someone is done with that, as in the case of this boy in remission, but the main concern is for patients who received transplants and therefore are on immuno-suppressants.

Hashem_Yaazor

Wed, Jan 28 2015, 10:24 pm

amother wrote:

I am really sorry you take offense at my modding (or lack thereof). I didn't edit the post you took issue with today because I deliberately left it up to Yael. She saw nothing wrong with it, and cleared the report.

If you are talking about the post in the first thread we argued on, Yael saw fit to remove a statistic about the death rate in America vs other countries. The links were 100% fine and pro-vax. There was nothing else on the thread that was left up and problematic.

I still have not seen the posts you are referring to as having attacked you for making your children sick. That is a horrible accusation, and if flagged, I would definitely take out any snide comments like that.
There is a limit to my time though, and I can't spend 3 hours trying to guess which posts those are.

Again, if you think I do not mod appropriately, Yael is the right address.

(BTW there are many, many posts that attack me -- as a mod, and as a poster -- and I refuse to mod those posts, because I am nogeia b'davar. Having the ability to delete something actually prevents me from doing anything, not even reporting them.)

goodmorning

Wed, Jan 28 2015, 10:29 pm

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

I am leaving your quote and would never think of editing it, but I don't consider it respectful to call other people pesayim. Just to be honest. I actually find those who do not vaccinate to usually (not always, but usually) be quite educated and making their decisions for solid reasons.

Actually, there is a halachic definition of an acceptable level of danger, which people routinely undergo, that is termed "shomer pesayim Hashem."

I just asked a Rav about the halachic status of this story, and he used this term in explaining why he thinks that the parents would be obligated to vaccinate their children.

(I am not the amother who originally used the term.)

amother

Wed, Jan 28 2015, 10:39 pm

southernbubby wrote:

or those docs don't watch the news

Ye, docs often just recommend what the cdc recommends they don't have much tv time. I just happened to pass by as it was on in the physicians lounge on my way to the bathroom. The docs I know that recommend it still back the cdc recommendation because they feel its in the publics interest to listen to the cdc. I think it's in the publics interest to THINK and realize not everything has a valid reason (hep B vaccine in a 2 day old for one).

Hashem_Yaazor

Wed, Jan 28 2015, 10:39 pm

goodmorning wrote:

I'm a bit confused -- he thinks they are obligated to protect the boy in remission, but what does that have to do with the danger to the children being vaccinated -- that they are now pesayim that are being protected by vaccinating? I think I'm missing something here Smile

southernbubby

Wed, Jan 28 2015, 10:44 pm

amother wrote:

the 12% estimate was for one strain and one age group.