Why don't you vaccinate? (no bashing)

liora25

Sun, Feb 01 2015, 10:36 am

baschabad wrote:

Liora25, certainly there is more to medical practice than diagnosing broken wrists but I chose that example because as far as I know there are no two ways about it.
With regard to the other conditions you mentioned, there are in fact differing medical opinions when it comes to diagnosis and treatment. This is where it makes sense to have a doctor that you respect and trust. I personally would not be comfortable with a doctor who prescribes a lot of antibiotics or sees surgery as a first option.
And there do exist doctors who don't give vaccinations and that would be the kind of person I trust!
There may be many reasons for why a doctor chooses to treat according to a certain ideology. That doesn't take away from my point that most doctors have not done their research.

Guess we can agree to disagree
But just one thing, have you asked most doctors whether they have done research or not? That is quite a generalization to make that " most doctors have not done their research"

dancingqueen

Sun, Feb 01 2015, 10:41 am

baschabad wrote:

So you only trust drs who agree with the conclusions that you yourself have come to by reading on the Internet? I'm honestly curious if you went to college and understand the concept of evidence based research. Why do anti vaxxers have a superior attitude that they understand better than everyone including drs? (Not trying to bash you personally just trying to understand)

amother

Sun, Feb 01 2015, 10:46 am

Raisin wrote:

One more question: What would you do if say, measles or mumps was going around your area?

Thanks for the responses!

If the area where the measles or mumps breakout is taking place is known, I would stay away. I would hope people who have the measles and the mumps stay at home as not to spread the disease. If I have an infant or person with a compromised immune system living with me, I would keep them away from public places for a while until the illness is cleared. In the event that I or a loved one catch the measles or mumps, we would stay home and take proper care till we recover. The person would then be naturally immune to it.
My son actually caught the flu this winter. I was petrified when I found out it was the flu because people are saying lately that young children have been dying from the flu. I kept checking while he was sleeping to make sure he was breathing because I was so worried. He had low fever. The doctor said not to do anything. I didn't give any meds. With lots of rest and lots of water and good food, the flu went away in about 5 days. Now that I see what the flu is first hand, I see no need for a healthy individual to take a flu vaccine. It wasn't fun and I wouldn't wish it upon anyone, but nor was it dangerous or deadly bh.

baschabad

Sun, Feb 01 2015, 12:14 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

Dancingqueen, when you say something like"conclusions you've come to by reading on the internet" and question my qualifications to make assessments based on my education then it IS bashing.
Superior attitude? I consider it a questioning attitude. I don't just want to trust what I'm being told by the authorities.

You can consider me foolish but at least be respectful about it.

Also, when you say "evidence based research" I'll reply with "proper studies haven't been done" and "they pick and choose the data that's convenient for them, ignoring serious evidence to the contrary." (please google "CDC whistleblower)

Did I personally analyze the studies? Gracious, no! I think it's important to understand that there are a lot of doctors, scientists and educated people behind this anti-vaccine movement. The media would have you believe otherwise by never interviewing those people or considering their positions. They call them "quacks" and "fakes", thereby delegitimizing their work. The media presents to you "a celebrity", a few fearful parents and a lot of foolish comments.

What you are probably asking is "why are you not following the majority opinion?" And my answer to that was "I generally don't!" Wink

southernbubby

Sun, Feb 01 2015, 12:39 pm

But there is the theory that if all vaccinations were halted, those diseases that are spread from person to person would become epidemics again. People travel and if those diseases are happening anywhere on earth, they can spread.
Do the anti-vaxers feel that all of those thousands of people who develop potentially dangerous infections can really be cured with vitamins? Are there really large numbers of doctors prescribing vitamins for pertussis and measles?
It looks to me that there is nothing that will reverse the damage done by polio, if the brain and spinal cord are affected. It is highly contagious.

baschabad

Sun, Feb 01 2015, 12:52 pm

Southernbubby, very good point with no easy answer. Because most of society is not immune to disease, a total halt of vaccination would likely mean a terrible outbreak of disease. Vaccination may have been a bad idea to start with, but now that it's going, stopping it would be catastrophic. As I said, no easy answer...

By the way, to clarify, vitamin c is not a cure for pertussis, but has been found to relieve symptoms. I posted one source earlier. If my child ever got whooping cough, that would be one of the treatments that I would try. Otherwise, I don't think doctors have much to offer.

No one is saying that disease is not potentially deadly, it's just not as common as some people might believe. The risk of death from disease vs risk of vaccine injury? Look it up!

Scrabble123

Sun, Feb 01 2015, 12:55 pm

baschabad wrote:

If Pertussis is caught early on (which is usually not the case because the bad cough develops after the bacteria have already "colonized..") antibiotics are effective. And yes, statistically the risk of being "damaged" from the actual disease is far higher than one of the rare side effects of the vaccine. Look that up: in scientific, peer reviewed journals/articles/studies.

Scrabble123

Sun, Feb 01 2015, 12:59 pm

I also have a question for individuals who do not vaccinate. I have asked it previous, but did not receive a response. Since Raisin asked her question and was answered, I'll try again here.

Would you travel outside of the United States with an unvaccinated child? Would it make a difference which country: say Germany V. Philippines or Canada V. Peru? Would you vaccinate your child against diseases like typhoid, yellow fever (well you won't be allowed back in the US if you go to a Yellow Fever country w/o prove of vaccination so...), rabies, etc. if you were planning on vacationing in area where those diseases are active and pose an infectuous threat?

youngishbear

Sun, Feb 01 2015, 1:04 pm

baschabad wrote:

Right, as we see from the partial halting of vaccinations in California and resulting partial outbreak of measles there.

Great point. Thank you for bringing diseases back.

And again, it's not so common because of the vaccines most people take. The effort to eradicate it that antivaxxers refuse to take part in.

Scrabble123

Sun, Feb 01 2015, 1:04 pm

baschabad wrote:

Just found this:
Zero deaths from measles in last ten years, 108 deaths from measles vaccines.
http://vaccineimpact.com/2015/.....rted/

16 people die of the measles every hour globally...
What are you talking about?

If you're only referring to the US cases, please realize that those individuals were not overwhelmed with hundreds of thousands of cases and were able to receive the best care. There were a few miscarriages last year from infected mothers as well. Furthermore, a pool of 100 is a very small pool. I believe that measles encephilitis is something like 1 or 2 in 1,000 and deaths are 1 per 1,000, but considering that around 500,000 were infected with measles annually before the vaccines in US it's was a lot of deaths. A pool of 100 is really not enough to base any study on.

youngishbear

Sun, Feb 01 2015, 1:08 pm

Scrabble123 wrote:

Besides the numbers game... few chidren die of measles because of the effort to eradicate it by vaccination. Less cases = less deaths. If everyone discovers the "truth" and stops vaccinating there'll be a lot more deaths ch"v.

I honestly don't know why I still bother posting in such threads. This debate is not good for my blood pressure.

eschaya

Sun, Feb 01 2015, 1:46 pm

I think a big problem here is that most people have no idea what measles, mumps, rubella, tetanus, diptheria, whooping cough, smallpox, polio, etc actually look like. As a non-vaxer posted in a related thread, she is "not afraid" of these diseases, whereas she is afraid of autism. One is known whereas the others are not familiar and therefore not worrisome. But they should be.
Also, I'd like to second frumdoc here about the very real risks of tylenol overdoses (as well as the misuse of many other drugs and treatments) as opposed to the more nebulous potential risks of vaccinations. I don't get why the hype is all in the area of vaccines as opposed to the many other risk laden medical treatments; not that I'm opposed to those either. There is almost no such thing as a risk free endeavor in this world. Crossing the street can be fraught with danger. But in anything we have to use our seichel and weight the risks and benefits. I do not believe that vaccinations cause disease in general, but I will grant you that we have no way at this point to guarantee that they are perfectly risk free. But the risks of allowing my child - or anyone's child - to contract some of the diseases we have worked so hard to eradicate... those risks are much higher on my scale of importance.
Also, just a point here about "intuition" and "gut instinct", because while it feels real, rationalism and scientific reasoning can prove that it is often very far from reality. When most people are asked what they fear, you will hear things like being struck by lightening, airplane crashes, gun violence, home fires, homicides, etc. Yet statistically, a person is far (by a huge amount) more likely to die of... cardiovascular disease!! But no one has a "gut instinct" to fear CV disease, and there are no huge and passionate "anti-cholesterol" movements. So yes, "gut instinct" is definitely a valuable tool, especially in making quick decisions, but it can actually be very irrational.
And even with regard to "research", you have to realize that there are many degrees and levels of data. Have you every seen the "levels of evidence" pyramids? "Expert opinions" and even "case reports" are very, very low levels of evidence. So while it's commendable to do "research", you should always try for the highest level possible. And at this point, I am positive that there is not one meta-analysis, systematic review, or even randomized controlled study (which is a step lower) that is in favor of not vaccinating.

To the amother whose son had the flu this year ended up ok... I'm happy for you. But as an ICU nurse I've taken care of quite a few patients who are in terrible respiratory distress and on ventilators because of... flu!! If the flu never progressed beyond a few annoying days I doubt there would have been so much money and effort expended to create a vaccine. But in some people, especially the young, the old, pregnant, and immunocompromised, the flu (and all the diseases that currently have vaccinations) can have terrible results. I invite you all to join me in an ICU for a few weeks...and perhaps learn to have a healthy fear of disease and appreciation for healthcare professionals who work tirelessly to minimize the human cost.

dancingqueen

Sun, Feb 01 2015, 1:51 pm

baschabad wrote:

I'm honestly not trying to bash you personally, but I am questioning the way that you ( and presumably many other amothers) said that you made your decision not to vaccinate. You talked about reading online and then went on to say that you don't think drs do their research. So I just wonder if you've been trained in how to analyze clinical and experimental evidence, statistical analysis, and evidence based practice as doctors are. In other words I'm not sure how anti vaxxers who read on the Internet consider themselves more educated than docotors who they insist are not doing "research." In terms of picking and choosing data don't you think the anti vax sites do that? Several studies have found no link (for example) between autism and vaccines but people continue to fear this.

To the other point would you feel as comfortable with your decision living in subsaharan Africa? Would you refuse an Ebola vaccine if cvs the disease spread and a vaccine was available?

I just want to understand, thanks.

Last edited by dancingqueen on Sun, Feb 01 2015, 1:55 pm; edited 1 time in total

southernbubby

Sun, Feb 01 2015, 1:52 pm

To date in 2014, a total of 40 importations have been reported among unvaccinated returning U.S. travelers. Among these, 22 acquired measles in the Philippines, where 32,030 measles cases (26,014 suspected cases and 6,016 confirmed cases) and 41 measles deaths have been reported from January 1 through April 20
This is from the CDC

“Even outdoors they will get it. Think of Polynesia where measles almost wiped out an entire people. Outdoors, healthy, eating well and natural, and yet they died. The people who don’t know history will die from it. But they even listen to doctors who have been discredited, people who think nature is best – and their children will suffer” this is from yourdoctorsorders.com

Apparently baschabad is right about America, there have been no deaths due to measles. The deaths were in other countries.

As far as deaths from measles vaccines, I would like to find a site that is neutral and not promoting either vaccines or an anti-vaccine stance that could give accurate statistics.

amother

Sun, Feb 01 2015, 1:58 pm

As someone who works in the medical field, I can tell you that primary doctors can LOSE MONEY on vaccines! The amount that medicaid reimburses for vaccines does not even cover the cost of the vaccines themselves. Also, vaccines can expire before they're used up and guess who takes the loss on that? Doctors are not in on this huge plot to force people to vaccinate in order to make big bucks.

Also to those who will not change their mind, ever, on the usefulness of vaccines, consider that medical science changes its mind all the time. That's how science works. You constantly re-evaluate evidence, fine-tune, get rid of treatments that aren't working and replace it with ones that do. That's why recommendations change. Not because they don't know what they're doing.

southernbubby

Sun, Feb 01 2015, 2:11 pm

amother wrote:

exactly, consider the fact that my generation got smallpox vaccinations but our children and grandchildren did not

also consider the fact that college students today can be vaccinated for meningitis which kills, maims and disables American college students so even if someone can state that measles is a minor illness, we can't say that about meningitis