Native american MM

skirtznsox

Thu, Feb 19 2015, 11:04 am

And please don't give them to a Purim gemach to foist this mistake onto someone else, either. Donate them to a children's museum, where children pretend at being other people all the time, and where it can be taught appropriately. Or to a playgroup and preschool where they can actually teach about the cultures.

Think about it, how would you feel if someone bought a Shylock costume, and then found out about the "controversy" surrounding the character and its anti-Semitic tones, but went "well, I already bought it and so too late, I'm going somewhere that's all WASP anyway, so it doesn't matter, and my kids are only 2 and 4, so who needs to teach them about not being racist/anti-Semitic now?"

Barbara

Thu, Feb 19 2015, 11:10 am

marina wrote:

Can I wear russian costumes? Like this http://www.amazon.com/Black-Ru.....stume

or this one http://www.amazon.com/s-xy-Whi.....stume

After a few shots of the vodka the second woman is carrying (and the belt has shot glasses in her belt for just that purpose), I wouldn't be offended any more.

ETA, you should really go for this one. I'm pretty sure that red fishnets are standard dress in the Russian army, so no issues with authenticity at least.

http://www.amazon.com/J-Valent.....3EPCX

Dandelion1

Thu, Feb 19 2015, 11:33 am

I agree that some types of costumes are insulting. But I don't agree that it extends to any and all cultural dress. Everyone always makes the shylock comparison. But that is an example of a hate based historical stereotype. Very different from a Pocahontas costume, worn by little girls out of interest and admiration for the historical figure she represents (and obviously the Disney princess). Would people be offended if someone wore an Israeli soldier costume? My non-Jewish next door neighbor is 7. He once said to me "I wanna be a soldier in Israel cause my daddy says they are the strongest army in the world." Would that costume be offensive if worn as a representation of an admired figure?

skirtznsox

Thu, Feb 19 2015, 11:44 am

I have no issue with the Pocahontas costume, Disney or historically accurate. (nor does the campaign, from what I read, and I've spoken to a few of the people who created it) You're dressing up as a historical figure, not just generic Native American. Israeli Army is also not a culture, it's a military costume. Same if you're dressing up as a WWII vet, etc. This isn't about political correctness, it's about respecting the feelings, cultures, and lifestyles of actual, currently living human beings that can and will see you do this, even if you think they won't.

marina

Thu, Feb 19 2015, 12:26 pm

Barbara wrote:

I really like that one, but my shul will revoke my membership lol

Orchid

Thu, Feb 19 2015, 1:38 pm

I didn't read through the thread, but TIME FOR THE ANNUAL PR overload MM thread!

Did you all catch the honest-to-goodness Amish amother who said not 2 days ago that she would not find it offensive at all when people dress up as Amish for purim? Nuch, she finds it heartwarming!

Go figure. Have any of you spoken to a Native American to see if it truly is insulting?

(BTW, please do not construe this as if I don't find anything ever insulting. I remember last year someone wanted to do a "homeless" theme with her kid dressed in rags holding a cardboard sign pleading for food. Yeah, that was obnoxious.)

Barbara

Thu, Feb 19 2015, 1:46 pm

Orchid wrote:

WOW! ONE woman said its not offensive. It must be okay. (Not to mention that if you're referring to her as an amother, she must be an Orthodox Jew, hardly representative of Amish people.)

People here have claimed that their rabbis permit them to lie in order to obtain government benefits. I guess that's OK too. One person, after all.

FTR, I have many Native American friends, and they are the ones who explained to me how offensive they find costumes. To be perfectly honest, it never occurred to me before they spoke about it.

Can you explain to me why it is so important to you that you and your children dress up in a manner that people find offensive? There are thousands upon thousands of things that you could dress up as for Purim. Why is it of such prime importance to you to dress offensively?

Orchid

Thu, Feb 19 2015, 1:50 pm

Barbara wrote:

Amother grew up Amish, despite what she is today, so her opinion is valid. Did you read the thread?

My point (whether deliberately misconstrued by you or otherwise) was that we might be presuming they are offensive without knowing for sure one way or other. If you say you personally spoke to NAs and they told you it was offensive, I believe you, and I believe we should not dress up in offensive costumes. I was just raising the point that many of us PRESUME they are offensive without knowing for certain.

Barbara

Thu, Feb 19 2015, 2:05 pm

Orchid wrote:

No one PRESUMES anything. There have been hundreds, if not thousands, of articles on the subject. Try reading them.

But if you really need your kids to dress up as Native Americans, think about dressing them up as Jim Thorpe or Jacoby Ellsbury. Will Rogers.

skirtznsox

Thu, Feb 19 2015, 5:02 pm

In the link I posted, one of the people who is on the board is Native American and Jewish, and is offended. He's also spoken with other NAs of various tribes. Some would be and some wouldn't be. But most, if not all, agreed that it doesn't help their day-to-day lives that these caricatures occur as costumes, and are a common perception of what being NA is. Other people who are [insert ethnicity here] and Jewish often have a hard time finding a place to comfortably hear Megillah because of the costumes worn that water them down to a stereotype. I'll paraphrase myself from the announcements. We are supposed to be a light to the nations. If something that we wear can cause another human being to be seen as less than by others around them, or as just a stereotype, or as being less-dimensional or not as fully human or even just "other", why would that be something that as frum, Torah observant Jews, we would WANT to do? I don't get it. There are, as I think barbara on this thread but maybe I'm wrong, said, SO MANY OTHER OPTIONS FOR COSTUMES. It's not about being PC. It's about not potentially negatively affecting other human beings. It's, in the end, not even about being offensive. While the formerly-Amish amother may not be offended, she can't speak for all Amish, and if even one or two would be deeply hurt, isn't that alone enough reason to find something better to wear for a holiday that is supposed to be fun and us bringing Hashem's miracles out of hiding? If it's not an identity that we hold, and it's not directly related to the chag, why do we feel the need to appropriate it "for fun"? We're not the non jews, and this isn't Halloween, and there are campaigns for that, too.

FranticFrummie

Thu, Feb 19 2015, 5:12 pm

skirtznsox wrote:

But Mom, the other kids are doing it. Dovi's brother's rebbi isn't offended, so it must be OK!

*facepalm*

amother

Thu, Feb 19 2015, 5:23 pm

Do people really find it offensive to dress up like their culture? I would think it's a compliment, after all you wouldn't dress up as a culture you hated. When I was a kid the janitor of our school, who was mexican, dressed up as a chassid on purim. He had a peyos hat, a fake beard, a bekesha. Everyone thought it was hysterical, noone was insulted. Anon in case anyone went to my elementary school and remembers it!!!

skirtznsox

Thu, Feb 19 2015, 5:36 pm

amother wrote:

I'm going to take that question as a statement of incredulity, which is how it should be phrased instead. "I'm surprised that people find it offensive..." would be more appropriate. Obviously people do, that's why the campaign was started, why there are articles on it, why the Halloween campaign #costumesnotcultures exists. If you have direct familiarity and constant interaction, and it's an in-joke in a place where all people are in on the joke, that's one thing. That's what happened at your elementary school (I'm assuming, because I'm assuming that you went to a Jewish elementary school). Also, there are chassidic Mexicans/Mexican chassids. Just saying.
People do dress up as cultures that they hate, too.
But as far as the compliment, I think some people would find it to be a compliment. Sometimes, I would, too. I think in some cases, if I were part of whatever culture, I would find it a compliment. But the majority of feedback is that with a lot of the costumes, they are not respectfully representing the nuance of a culture and bringing awareness of its beauty to the greater world. They're a fun thing to throw on that says "THIS is what this culture is." If the greater culture of the place a costume is being worn in is aware of the fact that it's really only one aspect of whatever you're stereotyping (as is usually the case with a Russian vodka costume, or a Scottish kilt and bagpipes costume), that nuance exists. But when it's a culture that most people aren't "in" on the awareness, and your costume isn't helping people become more aware of the actual individual people who exist in that culture, it's not a compliment.

amother

Thu, Feb 19 2015, 6:03 pm

Very interesting, thanks for explaining. No I never read any thread or blog about being offended by cultural costumes. Personally my kids dress up as policemen and firemen, but if they had asked me to dress up as a native american I wouldn't have objected. I grew up with a lot of them and love their culture, I never really thought it could be offensive to anyone, but I guess it's good to hear everyone's point of view.