Wants to be a Girl!

greenfire

Sun, Mar 22 2015, 3:14 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

He needs some badge of pride as a male.

it's called a p#nis Confused

Dolly Welsh wrote:

The thing to have done is not let boys see you doing your girl stuff. Ever.

I beg to differ - this is how they learn to treat their wives appropriately - by learning about women from their mothers/sisters ...

just eliminate putting on girly stuff ... find a male version of whatever

Dolly Welsh

Sun, Mar 22 2015, 3:23 pm

The bra: "he knew it was an item of clothing". How? He should never have seen the contraption.

No, they don't need to see Mom getting ready for work. There are doors.

You are tomboyish? Oh. Well, that worked out ok for you obviously, but it does mean gender differences weren't or aren't a big deal with you, and that is exactly the problem here.

"My brothers let me dress them up when we were all little" sure- that wasn't the great all-powerful mother, just Sis. Sis has no power, she's just a Kid like us. Doesn't have the same impact at all.

No, kids aren't just beginning to understand. They understood from the bassinet.

This is why you wear comfy knit but outdoors-rated long dresses, instead of floaty things, at home, when you are raising boys. You should always have on stuff that, with a shawl, you could answer the door in, to let in your husband's chavrusa. To sleep, too. No chiffon until they move out. Or only after they are all firmly asleep.

As for nails, a light color and an instant-dry, and no tips, manicure, can be done in three minutes tops, when they are asleep. Four minutes if toes are included.

Males get oversaturated, after the fascination wears off. Then they have had enough of it all; it's simply foreign to them, and they end up disgusted and disliking women. You are doing your future daughters-in-law no favors.

Keep the mystery. It's the fun. Trampling the mystery for convenience takes the fun out of life, long-term. Ugh. Life is tough enough. Kill-joys!

Last edited by Dolly Welsh on Sun, Mar 22 2015, 3:25 pm; edited 1 time in total

Barbara

Sun, Mar 22 2015, 3:24 pm

amother wrote:

3.5 year old DS wants to be a girl. This has been going on as long as I can remember, probably for the past year and a half IIRC. He's always putting on skirts, tights, asks me to put bows in his hair etc.

Now he's been crying all day that he wants me to buy him long hair and a hairband and he WANTS to be a girl. He cries and tantrums about it and it's driving me insane.

I generally allow him to wear all that girly stuff in the hopes that it'll fill his need so that eventually he'll move on. He wears a layered skirt that I once wore for a wedding, for him it drapes the floor and he's so proud that he's a kallah... he also wants a veil and will wear my bandanas. He can wear it every day! It's totally an obsession but the tantruming now is totally getting to me. He went to cheder this morning kicking and screaming that he wants to go to the shop to buy long hair........

What am I to do? Anyone else been in this situation?

Ignore the people who are going defcon whatever about a little boy playing dress up. Telling him he shouldn't do it or needs to hide or whatever is the surest way to convince him that he's a freak or there's something wrong with him -- and to cement the behavior.

Let him be. Make him a dress up bag with girl and boy things. And, as someone said, offer him uber cool boy clothes. Light up sneakers and kippot with tons of puffy paint and fun tee shirts.

If he's still saying he wants to be a girl when he's 7, talk to a psychologist about gender dysphoria. But at this point, I would just assume that its a stage.

Dolly Welsh

Sun, Mar 22 2015, 3:31 pm

By age seven, you are who you are going to be. Seven can read, talk, cook, sort laundry, simple arithmetic. Seven is a person. You leave it to then, you have left it a long, long time.

I do agree that the tone must not be negative or punishing or angry, or anything like that. Great delicacy and kindness, and a neutral tone, are called for. This is teaching, not correcting.

Male acceptance, acceptance by the father and other boys, is key. And no female intrusiveness: no excessive acceptance, that amounts to breaching the male's boundaries. No "you are my buddy, you are one of the girls, I can really talk to you". That seems friendly but it is not friendly, it is an assault toward him.

Every tiny boy should be seen as the man he will be. He should be treated with respect as if he were the gaon of the generation. That he is still pint-sized does not change who he is.

YES some little boys seem to have more talent for being males than some others, and may never need as much guiding in that direction. So what. Some do. People aren't all the same.

Don't say "this one particular boy did fine with it all, so the issue doesn't exist for any of them." That doesn't mean they all will do fine. Let us not find out the hard way which will do fine and which won't.

We simply have an obligation to not cause pain.

This kind of pain is among the world's top short list of dreadful pains.

Barbara

Sun, Mar 22 2015, 3:53 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

By seven you are who you are going to be. Seven can read, talk, cook, sort laundry, simple arithmetic. Seven is a person. You leave it to then, you have left it a long, long time.

I do agree that the tone must not be negative or punishing or angry or anything like that. Great delicacy and kindness and a neutral tone is called for. This is teaching, not correcting.

Male acceptance and no female intrusion or excessive acceptance that amounts to breaching the male's boundaries, is what is needed.

Every tiny boy should be seen as the man he will be. He should be treated with respect as if he were the gaon of the generation. That he is still pint-sized does not change who he is.

YES some little boys seem to have more talent for being males than some others and may never need as much guiding in that direction. So what. Some do. People aren't all the same.

Don't say "this one did fine with it all" - that doesn't mean they all will.

We simply have an obligation to not cause pain.

Which is why no one should follow your suggestions. Causing pain to the little boy who doesn't understand why he's doing something wrong.

Telling the young man who may be LGBTQ that he needs to hide, and not be who he is. Not that I think that OP's son is LGBTQ. But it's the natural extension of your thinking.

Dolly Welsh

Sun, Mar 22 2015, 4:19 pm

Utter care must indeed be used to not cause the little boy pain.

Carefully and smoothly, in a kind atmosphere, the mother should remove the stimulations that are interesting him. Meaning, the sight of bras, nail polish, and all that jazz. He isn't doing something "wrong" he's doing something he needs to be gently trained away from, not unlike, say, painting his face and hair with applesauce. That feels good too; we don't go ballistic, we show that's not the way. Gently and slowly, in an age-appropriate way.

I am not going to discuss how much a gay guy needs to hide, or does not. That is a practical matter with big practical consequences. It is best discussed by men as they are the ones who have to live it. It isn't theory for them. There aren't any men here, so that leaves that discussion in the realm of theory, here. And it would be hijacking this thread entirely.

The ways of women, and our beloved adornments, are eternally interesting; that's why we do them. The best designers have spent lifetimes perfecting their charm. We can't expect anybody, no matter how small, not to find them attractive and interesting. They are supposed to be attractive, and are.

amother

Sun, Mar 22 2015, 5:40 pm

If he feels like a girl inside, suppressing those feelings won't change anything. You can fill your house with cars and construction sets, and he'll still like dress up.
He's very young and there is the chance that he might not know the difference and he is just trying to be like mommy. If the latter is the case, he'll grow out of it.

amother

Sun, Mar 22 2015, 5:53 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

OP here.

Dolly, I do appreciate your concern but I'd like to point out that you keep confusing me and another poster so the situation sounds way more 'interesting' than it really is. Just to make it clear - his attempt at trying to put on my underwear was a ONE time occurrence! He's never seen me in my underwear nor has he shown an interest to any nail polish or make-up.

Thankfully he also does many age appropriate and gender appropriate things and his obsession with girly stuff, as another poster wrote, seems like he's trying to be like his Mom.

Personally I'm not that concerned ~ just wanted to hear if others have been in my situation and how things evolved over time.

FranticFrummie

Sun, Mar 22 2015, 8:03 pm

Call me old fashioned, but I'm with Dolly.

I absolutely wouldn't let. Period. I'd put a lock on my bedroom door if he didn't stay out of my stuff. 3.5 is old enough for him to know the difference between Mommy's stuff and his stuff, and he has no business being in your underwear drawer.

When he turns 18 and moves out of the house he can wear anything he wants, but under your roof, you are the adult and you can make the rules.

MagentaYenta

Sun, Mar 22 2015, 8:25 pm

Imaginative play is something that begins at this age. Dressing up in any kind of clothes is fun for children when they are learning to pretend. We live in a culture of binary gender stereotypes. Children aren't aware of our stereotypes when their brains are into pretend. Naturally the secret stuff of mommies underwear are fascinating to a child, male or female. So lock your drawers or bedroom door if you want to keep this secret. It is age appropriate behavior. It's what kids do.

BrachaBatya

Sun, Mar 22 2015, 11:54 pm

amother wrote:

This is off topic but I watched a beautiful program on CNN about a family with a girl who they have transitioned to a boy for first grade. If this is a persistent concern, I would really consult a professional though...

THIS.

It's nothing to be ashamed of. it is worth discussing with a pediatrician. I immediately thought that this child may truly wish to be a girl in a way that he cannot control based on his biological makeup. It exists and again, there is no shame in it. This is how HaShem made some people and they are Btzelem Elokim just as much as anyone else.

Dolly Welsh

Mon, Mar 23 2015, 1:23 am

Sequoia the answer to your question is no.

Not because Harry isn't human, but because the question has no meaning.

Ghenghis Khan was human and so was Mother Theresa, and it doesn't mean anything. So was Catherine the Great, and so was Joan of Arc. So? When you have said they were human, you haven't said anything yet.

Living out of consonance with your anatomy is done by some, but not by very many, and a barrel of laughs it is not.

My loyalty to the original post is that if OP didn't think gender mattered, she would not have posted at all, and she did.

It's her thread. I feel obliged to stay with her problems as she defines them, not tell her she shouldn't think that way. That's how she thinks, and anybody who thinks another way can start their own thread.

Dolly Welsh

Mon, Mar 23 2015, 1:31 am

BrachaBatya wrote:

I would try to solve this at home for a while and hold off on putting this into the boy's permanent medical record. If it was just a bit of childish stuff, which is probable, he doesn't need that in his file.

What's on CNN is by DEFINITION the fad of the month and does not have to become part of our canon. You are aware that TV is entertainment? It's about getting you to look at the ads. There is no good in the worm.

In short, horsing around with small children's heads at vulnerable times of their development because of a FAD is not proper.

There is such a thing as thinking too much, and being too "nice".

The world is not going to be nice. You do nobody any favors by letting your children get weird. They will be shredded by others the minute your back is turned.

They will not thank you later.

No fads.

Last edited by Dolly Welsh on Mon, Mar 23 2015, 1:58 am; edited 1 time in total

Rodent

Mon, Mar 23 2015, 1:40 am

Just do the opposite of whatever Dolly says. Such terrible advice. It's that type of approach that results in people with genuine s-xuality or gender issues taking their own lives (the statistics are shocking). I'm not saying this child is in that situation as he's still so little but it is dangerous. Just love him as he is. It's likely a phase but if it's not then address it with professionals at the point when it is no longer age appropriate.

MagentaYenta

Mon, Mar 23 2015, 1:48 am

Rodent wrote:

Yup, let him be a kid, let him grow an imagination, this is not uncommon behavior.

Dolly Welsh

Mon, Mar 23 2015, 1:54 am

Rodent, you speak as if you have been through this, but you haven't been through this.

This is exactly what I am disparaging. Theoretical posturing, based on current faddish thinking on CNN, when you haven't walked the walk, been there, done that, and aren't in the field.

I am holding to the old fashioned way and not pretending to know what I don't know.

If you are talking like a psychological professional, state your credentials. Having a lot of nice boys, but never having dealt with this, doesn't count.

I have never used the word "shame" once.

I think there is a way to encourage both genders in the directions they are going to have to live with.

You sound very much as if you are assuming OP's boy is going to go in an atypical direction for life and needs to not be pressured harmfully.

That is an assumption. I don't think it is a very likely one at all.

I am not advocating being mean, I am advocating being careful.