Will Humans want to alter their bodies to become 4 legged?

youngishbear

Tue, Jun 02 2015, 7:28 pm

I would venture to say it's okay to sympathize with their gender confusion, while disapproving of their choice of how to deal with that.

Maybe you believe they need psychiatric care instead of surgery, but that doesn't make them unworthy of compassion.

gp2.0

Tue, Jun 02 2015, 7:34 pm

Machel wrote:

I just saw this article. people who feel like they are supposed to be disabled.

http://www.nationalpost.com/m/.....odies

I know I shouldn't judge if I'm not in their shoes but my first reaction is really...??

This is really interesting! Because at first glance it seems like a psychiatric condition, but now they're wondering if it could be a neurological mapping disorder. Very interesting.

nywife

Tue, Jun 02 2015, 7:36 pm

Ok I have a question. And I do not mean this in a derogatory way so please no one bash me for that. I am asking in a purely intellectual manner.
Bruce was born Bruce- with a male body and a male identity. At a certain point, after what I can imagine was years of confusion, a female version of him, Caitlyn, was born. This means that he has a part of him that he identifies with something that is different than what the reality is. Even though he is now trying to change that reality with cosmetic surgery, for years he had 2 distinct identities, each with different behavior and character traits. My question is how does this differ from a toned down version of multiple personality disorder?

imasoftov

Tue, Jun 02 2015, 7:38 pm

Barbara wrote:

I'm looking forward to the day when we can transplant some empathy into people who are nasty and cruel to those who are suffering. You'll be first on the list.

That's probably more difficult.

GreenEyes26

Tue, Jun 02 2015, 7:49 pm

fmt4 wrote:

I feel a lot of empathy toward Bruce/Caitlyn, and I wish him all the best. I have no problem with him doing what he is doing, and I am sure that he really does feel like a woman. But do I think that he is one, now that he had plastic surgery, put on a wig and makeup, and changed his name? No. That does not make one a woman.

I feel the same. To him, his feelings are real. It just makes me sad that the only recourse for people suffering from a very obvious mental....illness? Defect? Frazzled wiring? I'm not sure what to call it - is drastic, life-altering surgery.

(S)he can look, talk, and act like a woman, but biologically he will always be male. We can accept this person as whom they choose present, but that doesn't change the reality of the situation.

wiki

Tue, Jun 02 2015, 8:09 pm

I dunno what Rav Schachter would say, but in YU, there is a tenured professor who is a trans woman. When he was male, he was a popular professor and earned tenure. The next semester he went on sabbatical, underwent gender reassignment, and returned female. YU did not fire the professor--it probably would have been illegal to do so anyway. But some Roshei Yeshiva did subsequently express their opinions that no amount of surgery changed the professor from being a man. I'm pretty sure "she" is not allowed to use women's bathrooms, and instead uses single-occupancy neutral ones.

amother

Mauve

Tue, Jun 02 2015, 8:17 pm

wiki wrote:

I had Dr. Ladin the first semester she returned after transitioning. She was a not my favorite, but the course was alright. I didn't get then, nor get now, why this should have been an issue. She's a professor in the English department, who cares about her private life? She does her job and there's nothing religious involved. Yeah, I was a bit weirded out knowing that Joy Ladin used to be Jay Ladin, but I got over pretty quickly and just learned in class. And yes, I am using the pronouns Dr. Ladin prefers. Why not? I may disagree, by why can't a respect a person's wishes and call them what they want to be called? No skin off my back.

Scrabble123

Tue, Jun 02 2015, 8:21 pm

I'm assuming that the OP is ignorant regarding the physical and psychological aspects of this topic which is why her post is so off target. I suggest that she should read up on it, and while she does not have to support the concept, a little empathy for those individuals who are living with it everyday is still appropriate.

amother

Cerise

Tue, Jun 02 2015, 8:27 pm

Scrabble123 wrote:

Rachmanus yes, approval no.

If any of you here felt you ought to have been born a man, would you go trans? Would your parents be proud and happy for you?

MrsDash

Tue, Jun 02 2015, 8:37 pm

Superuser wrote:

Excuse me! This is blatant discrimination here! Complete unacceptable and against Jewish values. I pray to God every day that they will come up with the research to make me one day feel comfortable in my own body. From when I was very young, I always felt like I was half donkey and half human. I donate large amounts of money to research into this instead of giving that money to cancer research. Me becoming half donkey is far more important and racist bigots like you and Mike Huckabee will not convince me otherwise! It has always been my dream to become half donkey. Smile

Well, you sure do sound like a "donkey," so you're half way there!

mille

Tue, Jun 02 2015, 8:39 pm

I give a bracha to all the uninformed imamothers on this thread that you may never, ever know what it is like to have dysphoria of any type, or any other mental illness that makes you distressed beyond the point of normal functioning.

I can't really say any more, because I am still picking up my jaw from the floor at the disrespectful comments in this thread.

nywife

Tue, Jun 02 2015, 8:44 pm

Since no one has an answer to my question above Wink

, does anyone know the halachic definition of gender? Is it based on chromosomes or on s*x organs? Meaning would gender reassignment surgery alter ones halachic gender status?

ETA: they're s*x organs not "relations" organs. yeesh.

amother

Cerise

Tue, Jun 02 2015, 8:45 pm

imasoftov wrote:

As I do not feel that way, I have no way of knowing what I would do in that situation.

Im not any of many things such as grandfather, father, Rabbi, US pres, or someone who has experienced any of many different experiences, etc, but I still have an inkling about how Id behave if I was.

youngishbear

Tue, Jun 02 2015, 8:57 pm

amother wrote:

Im not any of many things such as grandfather, father, Rabbi, US pres, or someone who has experienced any of many different experiences, etc, but I still have an inkling about how Id behave if I was.

That's just it. Your inklings are conjecture at best. Al tadin es chaveiro ad shetagiah bimkomo. Your statement contradicts a basic principle you've presumably been taught.

How can you possibly know how the testosterone and other physical and psychological differences men have would impact your thoughts and actions??

Scrabble123

Tue, Jun 02 2015, 9:05 pm

mille wrote:

Mille, I think that many people are just extremely uninformed and ignorant. They see it like a person who wants to be taller or wants to a be doctor, ignoring the physical, s*xual, social, & psychological aspects that case unbearable pain to those that suffer with this. Ignorance is not an excuse, and I do suggest that they all read up on the topic.

MagentaYenta

Tue, Jun 02 2015, 9:05 pm

nywife wrote:

Ok I'll take this on. Please google Dissociative Identity Disorder (formerly known as MPD) for the DSM qualifiers for diagnosis . ETA: Intersex conditions are determined by chromosomes. Wiki has some good examples of chromosomal differences that make up the spectrum of intersex.

Gender dysphoria is a mismatch between the body and ones internal sense of their gender. Unlike individuals with DID, individuals suffering from GD suffer from dissonance. The process of diagnosing GD is long and arduous and is necessary for anyone who is seeking to transition.

Scrabble123

Tue, Jun 02 2015, 9:10 pm

amother wrote:

Rachmanus yes, approval no.

If any of you here felt you ought to have been born a man, would you go trans? Would your parents be proud and happy for you?

Amother, I suggest that you read up on a story like this one:
http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/18/.....land/

Do parents want their child committing suicide because of the intense emotional pain that no one should ever have to deal with? What about the living in a body that they do not feel is their own? It's way more than you understand it to be. Again, don't approve if you don't want you, but realize how BH blessed you are that those issues are not something that you are grappling with because the people who are are in terrible, unimaginable pain, and realize that you have the ability to become more educated and tolerant about the subject.

Also, would you feel the same about an intersex child who had doctors come down and run tests short after his/her brith that decide that the child should be raised female, and later in life realized that the doctors made a mistake as male hormones overtake her? No, that was not a joke. That used to happen a lot because that science was improved, although it is still not mistake-proof.

Last edited by Scrabble123 on Tue, Jun 02 2015, 9:15 pm; edited 1 time in total