Will Humans want to alter their bodies to become 4 legged?

youngishbear

Tue, Jun 02 2015, 9:11 pm

As long as this thread is active, I may as well ask my questions... does anyone know the Torah view on gender reassignment surgery?

My only reference is the attitude I've read about from some towards those who are gay - it's your nisayon and your duty is not to act on your desires. Is there a similar attitude to transgender people?

MagentaYenta

Tue, Jun 02 2015, 9:14 pm

youngishbear wrote:

You do realize that most trans people do not have gender reassignment surgery don't you? Only 25-30% of trans people have any kind of surgery, including cosmetic.

greenhelm

Tue, Jun 02 2015, 9:16 pm

amother wrote:

Rachmanus yes, approval no.

If any of you here felt you ought to have been born a man, would you go trans? Would your parents be proud and happy for you?

No, I'm sure my parents would want me to be miserable for the rest of my life, like the good parents they are, and no doubt measure my success in life by how feminine I appear, as opposed to what I actually contribute to the good of the world.

youngishbear

Tue, Jun 02 2015, 9:19 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

You do realize that most trans people do not have gender reassignment surgery don't you? Only 25-30% of trans people have any kind of surgery, including cosmetic.

Yes, I do know that (without such precise numbers lol). I'm asking about this specifically because it's a drastic (more or less permanent) act. The comparison I can think of are tatoos, which are forbidden. Obviously, this is a completely different thing, but do you know anything about this topic from a Torah viewpoint? I can't exactly call up a posek and ask, ya know...

mille

Tue, Jun 02 2015, 9:26 pm

Scrabble123 wrote:

Mille, I think that many people are just extremely uninformed and ignorant. They see it like a person who wants to be taller or wants to a be doctor, ignoring the physical, s*xual, social, & psychological aspects that case unbearable pain to those that suffer with this. Ignorance is not an excuse, and I do suggest that they all read up on the topic.

Oh I definitely agree, just to clarify. I grew up in a really liberal part of the country, and I don't live in an area now where the general reaction is remotely similar to literally making fun of trans people. It just saddens me. It's easy to make fun when you have no basis of understanding, which is why I wish a bracha on them that they never have to experience this. It's not fun. (I don't know from personal experience, but I have had a close friend go through it)

MagentaYenta

Tue, Jun 02 2015, 9:38 pm

youngishbear wrote:

Gender is innate and unchangeable according to the Torah. Lev. speaks to the removal or crushing of mens gonads which is forbidden, as well as cross dressing aspects. One really wouldn't expect a sect of Jews that forbids women from wearing trousers would be accepting of a male getting breast implants and taking female hormones.

Conservative views are that SRS is an acceptable medical treatment. But according to us frum folk they're not real Jews anyway.

happybeingamom

Tue, Jun 02 2015, 9:44 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

I am sure you are being sarcastic as you know that is false.

amother

Lime

Tue, Jun 02 2015, 11:02 pm

Why no compassion? We should have compassion for people who have mental illnesses, but it is far from established that gender identity disorders are biological in origin. Here, 2 prominent psychologists explain their opposing views; 1 feels that children who believe they are the opposite gender will change their mind in their teens, and that allowing them to dress and act as the opposite gender actually creates the disorder:

http://www.npr.org/templates/s.....29789

What is especially concerning, I think, is the political agenda behind the news stories. For ex., why does the lgbt community viciously attack people who come to regret their s*x change surgery, so much so that it is impossible to collect data on percentages of people who have these regrets? Bec. it contradicts the narrative that all matters related to anything s*xual are purely biological and thus, not a matter of personal choice.

Which of course means that "compassion" would require legal protection for all sorts of behaviors that until recently, society has considered abhorrent.

Ye ole' slippery slope.

FranticFrummie

Tue, Jun 02 2015, 11:24 pm

zaq wrote:

Is Jenner Jewish? Because unless he is, issurei haTorah do not apply to him/her/it/them. Thou shalt not castrate thyself is not one of the 7 Noahide laws. So why should rabbis, Orthodox or otherwise, have any opinion about Jenner whatsoever?

The issue isn't so much about Jenner in particular, but rather what it means for Jews who feel the same way about their gender, and what they can or cannot do about it.

It's a very difficult issue, because things like incomplete genital formation, XXY chromosome patterns, and other variations from the "norm" do create medical situations that need to be addressed.

The other issue that is harder, is when someone is considered 100% physically healthy, but they are not happy with their gender. Where is the line drawn between surgery to save a life, and surgery to promote a lifestyle? Who makes that decision, and on what basis?

What

I don't have any answers, so I'm not going to judge. I've had several trans friends over the years, who have transitioned for many different reasons. I don't live in their bodies, so I don't feel it's my place to say what they should do. I feel the same way about abortion. It might not be my choice, and it might even make me uncomfortable to discuss it, but in the end I am not going to get up on a soap box and condemn anyone.

MagentaYenta

Tue, Jun 02 2015, 11:28 pm

amother wrote:

Why no compassion? ...

Snipped for brevity. Thanks for posting that interview. It's interesting to hear the views about minors who may have GID. That NPR show got lots of coverage when it was on over 7 years ago. That's the brilliance of the producers over at NPR, their ability to have two professionals with opposing views engage in important topics for our times. Ehrensaft and Zucker both agree that this is a subject (childhood transgender identity) that needs to be studied. I'll be interested in any large longitudinal data studies on Trans children.

But let's put this very specialized issue aside and discuss the original topic of transgender adults. I know a number of Trans people, I actually had a transgender physician for a number of years. Frankly I'm more interested in the political agenda you've mentioned. I'd like to learn more about it.

zaq

Tue, Jun 02 2015, 11:45 pm

Barbara wrote:

She (Jenner) hasn't undergone castration.

Then even more so, she/he/it is not an issue for discussion by rabbis, orthodox or otherwise.
I am not "getting" this brouhaha davka now davka with this person. He has done nothing groundbreaking; gender-shifting has been going on for decades. It may be unusual for a person to shift that late in life, but so what? It's not as if he's having a baby.

Now if it had been G-d forbid Mark Spitz, who IS Jewish, I could understand.

DrMom

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 1:31 am

MagentaYenta wrote:

Frankly I'm more interested in the political agenda you've mentioned. I'd like to learn more about it.

Okay, I'll bite.

I think part of the issue was explained by amother above:

Quote:

What is especially concerning, I think, is the political agenda behind the news stories. For ex., why does the lgbt community viciously attack people who come to regret their s*x change surgery, so much so that it is impossible to collect data on percentages of people who have these regrets? Bec. it contradicts the narrative that all matters related to anything s*xual are purely biological and thus, not a matter of personal choice.

I think the implication is that normalizing transgenderism is simply another step in a radical agenda for erasing traditional sx roles. How long will it be before it is mandatory for schools to teach about transgenderism in schools? How long will it be before someone writes a children's book "Now Heather Has *Two* Mommies!" and schools which don't place the book in their libraries or reading lists will be excoriated by the Left for being closed-minded and harming children's mental health or stunting their development.

I have no problems with adults, such as Bruce Jenner, making choices about their bodies. If someone -- male or female -- wants to undergo FDA-approved surgery to augment their breasts or inject stuff into their lips of liposuction their stomach or enhance their tush, etc, that is his/her business. But I do think that the widespread and very vocal support Bruce Jenner has received serves a broader and more pointed agenda.

Lest anyone think I have soem sort of personal problem with Bruce Jenner, I'll say that he seems like a genuinely likeable and decent person. Certainly a step up from that trashy Kardashian crowd he married into.

I realize this opinon may not be popular here.

MagentaYenta

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 1:45 am

DrMom wrote:

Transgender and intersex are already taught in some public school systems here in the US. Parents in the US do have the right to opt their children out of cex ed classes whether they be comprehensive or abstinence only. So that's a moot point.

Jenner is making money from all of this and I suspect the Kardashians are as well. These are people who make their income from fame and notoriety. I do think that Jenner is sincere about his own gender identity. The up side is people are having conversations about transgender and some folks are learning more.

DrMom

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 2:52 am

MagentaYenta wrote:

- I posit that this incident will be used as a tool for expanding and normalizing such programs.
- Teaching something as part of the curriculum and giving the parents the right to "opt out" is still pushing and normalizing a particular agenda.