Will Humans want to alter their bodies to become 4 legged?

MagentaYenta

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 3:06 am

For those districts that have comprehensive cex ed normalization has taken place. To my understanding most of US schools teach comprehensive relations ed. What is leading this trend is a greater understanding about humans and their gender, as well as different components of gender identity. There are going to be LGBT kids, and they will be at risk until folks begin to learn and understand what these youth are experiencing.

Here in the US parents are free to influence the decisions of local boards of education, curriculum meetings are always open to the public and all curriculum syllabi are available to parents regardless of the subject. There are parents of public school systems that opt out of academic classes as well. I've sat on school curriculum committees, parents are typically welcome to do this in many districts.

imasoftov

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 4:29 am

amother

Seashell

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 4:52 am

Superuser wrote:

Excuse me! This is blatant discrimination here! Complete unacceptable and against Jewish values. I pray to God every day that they will come up with the research to make me one day feel comfortable in my own body. From when I was very young, I always felt like I was half donkey and half human. I donate large amounts of money to research into this instead of giving that money to cancer research. Me becoming half donkey is far more important and racist bigots like you and Mike Huckabee will not convince me otherwise! It has always been my dream to become half donkey. Smile

Mission accomplished [edited]

DrMom

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 6:42 am

MagentaYenta,

Not all US states have a opt-out option. And I maintain that teaching something as a default with an opt-out option is still a form of normalizing it.

In Canada, several lawsuits were filed by religious Greek Orthodox Xtians who claimed that material with a supposed opt-out option was taught without notifying parents, or that schools ignored opt-out requests from parents. The school boards insist that "Public schools teach everyone about respecting diversity and valuing everyone." Translation: To bad, we will teach your primary school children whatever we want, whether or no it conflicts with your religious values.

Opt-out programs are fraught with mistakes and loopholes and schools ignoring opt-out requests.

Why can't these curricula be opt-in?

mille

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 7:34 am

amother wrote:

Why no compassion? We should have compassion for people who have mental illnesses, but it is far from established that gender identity disorders are biological in origin. Here, 2 prominent psychologists explain their opposing views; 1 feels that children who believe they are the opposite gender will change their mind in their teens, and that allowing them to dress and act as the opposite gender actually creates the disorder:

http://www.npr.org/templates/s.....29789

What is especially concerning, I think, is the political agenda behind the news stories. For ex., why does the lgbt community viciously attack people who come to regret their s*x change surgery, so much so that it is impossible to collect data on percentages of people who have these regrets? Bec. it contradicts the narrative that all matters related to anything s*xual are purely biological and thus, not a matter of personal choice.

Which of course means that "compassion" would require legal protection for all sorts of behaviors that until recently, society has considered abhorrent.

Ye ole' slippery slope.

Many mental disorders are not confirmed to be biological in nature, and many are considered to be multi-origin. One of the current prominent models in the field of Psychology right now is the "biopsychosocial" model - biological, psychological, and sociological/socioeconomic causes of disorders. It's not always SOLELY biology, even in disorders we consider to be "entirely" biological in nature.

But does that mean we don't have empathy for people going through these disorders? Of course not. It doesn't really matter who is at "fault", what matters is that people who need treatment receive it.

amother

Cerise

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 8:35 am

Which Rabbis have given their blessings to such transition (going trans)?

PinkFridge

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 8:36 am

amother wrote:

Mission accomplished because you're already an @$$

Mrs. Dash made the same point on p. 2
Now I can appreciate people who liked the sentiment there liking it here too but please remember that it's especially diminishing to like an attack by amother.

Scrabble123

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 9:18 am

DrMom wrote:

Parents need to stop opting out of issues that are apparent in society just because they are not religiously and emotionally healthy enough to address them properly at home and irrationally fear that it will throw off their entire hashkafa.

GetReal

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 10:08 am

Someone asked about the halachic aspects. Interesting article at jlaw: http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/m......html

Here's the relevant part of it.

According to Jewish law, the removal of s-xual organs is prohibited; hence relations reassignment surgery is prohibited according to biblical law for men;275 and it is disputable whether the removal of s-xual organs is a biblical or rabbinic prohibition for women.276 Although the technical prohibition of removing s-xual organs applies only in the context of physical removal, a number of authorities note that undergoing hormonal treatment to give the appearance of being a member of the opposite relations violates the biblical commandment in Deuteronomy which states that "A woman shall not wear that which pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman's garment."277 These commentators maintain that this prohibition against wearing the garments of the opposite relations also encompasses the attempt to develop physical appearances that are typically associated with the opposite relations.278 This prohibition has been applied in a broad variety of contexts, each within its historical parameter prohibiting conduct which resembles that which the opposite relations does.279 It seems almost intuitive that if actions designed to give the mere appearance of belonging to the wrong relations are forbidden, then actual physical changes, hormonal or surgical, are also prohibited.

The question of whether a physical operation to change one's relations accomplishes its goal, notwithstanding the prohibition, is a subject of some controversy in Jewish law. The earliest discussion concerning the s-xual status of a transsexual is found in the twelfth century commentary of Ibn Ezra on Leviticus 18:22, where he, quoting Rabbenu Chananel, states that intercourse between a man and another man, in whom the s-xual organs of a woman have been fashioned, constitutes a violation of the biblical prohibition of homosexuality, despite the presence of apparently female s-xual organs.280 Thus, Ibn Ezra rules that s-xual status cannot be changed surgically, since if this person was now legally a woman, no violations of the sodomy laws could occur. Rabbi Yosef Palachi281 is of the opinion that no divorce is necessary for the dissolution of a marriage contracted prior to transsexual surgery.282 This position is, at least on its face, contrary to Ibn Ezra's since it implies that the operation successfully turned the husband into a female.

In a recent responsum of the Tzitz Eliezer, Rabbi Waldenberg claims that one who undergoes transsexual surgery assumes the status of the relations to which he is now surgically assigned.283 Rabbi Waldenberg, apparently adopting the intellectual analysis of Rabbi Palachi, states that the transsexual surgery establishes a new person with a new s-xual status. Hence, no bill of divorce is necessary in order to sever the previous marriage. Rabbi Waldenberg compares this situation to that of the removal of the prophet Elijah from the earth.284 He states that just as the wife of a person who has been removed from the earth has had her marriage terminated, so too does a wife of a person who has had his relations reassigned. It is the equivalent of death which also terminates a marriage.285 This understanding of the rules for terminating a marriage is based upon the position taken by the Minchat Chinuch,286 that if a person no longer can enter into a valid marriage with anybody, that person's prior marriages are terminated.

Some commentators have attacked this responsum, arguing that it implies that an act which is prohibited in Jewish law, and which the law considers merely to be an act of self-mutilation, terminates a marriage duly entered into without the consent, or even knowledge, of the other spouse. These authorities maintain that transsexual surgery has no effect on one's s-xual status on Jewish law.287 They concede that such a person could no longer enter into a marriage as a male, due to his inability to function s-xually as one. However, they strongly deny that he could enter into a marriage as a female, as Rabbi Waldenberg implies.288 This author believes that the second position is correct -- primarily because Jewish law as codified appears not to accept the position that one who cannot enter into a marriage has his current marriage terminated,289 and this is in accordance with Rabbenu Chananel quoted above.290

In the extremely new topic of relations reassignment surgery, American law remains true to its analytic premise. The law is given the right to reassign s-xual identity, just as it is given the right to reassign parental status. Although there is a vigorous opinion to the contrary, this author believes that Jewish law also remains consistent with its own premise, and maintains that s-xual status cannot be legally changed once correctly established.

zohar

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 11:39 am

I see a few assumptions being made here.
#1. There is consensus in the medical field that transgenderism is not a mental illness. This is not the case. Many well respected psychiatrists and medical institutions feel it is a body dysmorphic disorder and the transgendered person's feelings and identity do not reflect reality.

#2. Surgery is the solution. Patients are "happy" after surgery and hormone treatments to change their gender. This is not reflected in reality. There was a study in Sweden that followed 324 people who have undergone relations reassignment surgery. Starting a decade after surgery, many seemed to have an increase of mental issues. Their suicide rate is astronomically high. 20 times higher than the general population.

#3. Children who feel that they were born the wrong gender will always have these feelings throughout their lives. Two separate studies followed these children and found that 70%-80% spontaneously lost these feelings. The remaining children retained some to all of those feelings. Anecdotally, we know this to be true. I am not worried about my 3 year old dd who tells me she is a boy and wants to wear pants and be a tatty. She will out grow it just like my tomboy sister and my male neighbor who liked to wear pocketbooks, heels and sparkly necklaces.

The above is mostly a summery of an article by Dr. Paul McHugh the former psychiatrist in chief at John Hopkins Hospital and is currently professor there. Transgender Surgery Isn't the Solution

DrMom

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 11:47 am

Scrabble123 wrote:

Why do parents "need to stop opting out" of these ever-expanding, ever more radical programs?

Perhaps they want to address these issues using a different approach than that of their local public school curriculum. That is their right.

mommy3b2c

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 12:10 pm

DrMom wrote:

Just want to say dr. Mom, I haven't added to the post because I know my words will be misconstrued and misquoted, but I totally agree with you. Although I would never make fun of a transgender person, I don't need to have the idea that it's normal and wonderful shoved down my child's throat. I can teach them about transgenders in the manner I deem suitable and appropriate. I should have the right to teach them in my own way.

zohar

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 12:12 pm

And for those who are mocking op about ppl wanting to be animals. It is a real thing and they sound alot like transgendered ppl. They "knew" since a young age that they are really a dog or something. Once saw a Dr. phil on this. (In hospital after baby #2) The guy gets home from work, changes into his dog suit, roams the neighborhood . Eats dog food. How many of you would see that and not see mental illness?
And who would of thought that transabled would gain legitimacy as is happening now. So yes, it is a sloppery slope.

Scrabble123

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 12:22 pm

DrMom wrote:

It is their right to address it as they wish in their home, but schools may teach what has been deemed emotionally, socially, intellectually, and psychologically appropriate for specific ages. Parents who disagree with the Man Landing on the Moon, Gay Marriage, or with teaching their children about Martin Luther King can choose to supplement their own ideals and thoughts on the matter in their homes.

Barbara

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 12:29 pm

zohar wrote:

I agree completely.

There is this group of people out there who say that their religion requires them to slice off a part of their infant sons' p3nis. Why can't the government outlaw this barbaric practice? It's a slippery slope to parents slicing off their babies' arms or legs.

And, you know, 40% of transgender and nonconforming gender teens in the US attempt suicide. BH, though, we can continue to marginalize and ridicule them, telling them that they are no different from a guy who walks around in a dog suit. Because then maybe we can increase the rate to 100%.

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 12:32 pm

I have not read all of the replies at all, but I am amazed at the ignorance on this board. If you are going to answer a thread, at least know what you are talking about.
These people who are having surgeries are not just having plastic surgeries. Many of them are having s@x changes as in changing their organs and taking hormones so that they can either transition to a woman (adding breasts) or transition to a man (more pronounced adams apple or deeper voice) It is not only cosmetic. It is much deeper than that.
There was a show on, I think netflix, I saw it online here in Israel, called transparent. I thought it was both extremely informative and sad at the same time.
So again, before people say things, know what the heck you are talking about.
Can you imagine the pain that such a person goes through in life to want to change their entire body? Thats not something that one thinks up over night. Such pain is probably awful. Think of that.

zohar

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 12:35 pm

Scrabble123 wrote:

There is a difference between Man on the Moon and Gay marriage. One is history and fact. There is also a difference between teaching what the legal status is on Gay Marriage and glorifying the LGBT community to children and preaching that anyone who is anti Gay marriage is a bigoted, hateful and evil person.

zohar

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 12:42 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

I agree such pain is terrible and thank HaShem that I do not suffer from such feelings. The problem is that the media and some mental health providers are leading these poor ppl to believe that all they need to feel better is gender reassignment surgery and treatments. But this does not seem to be the case. (see my earlier post.) They are not doing these ppl any favors. The LGBT community squash and intimidate transgendered ppl who have gone through treatment and regret it. It doesn't further their agenda.

Barbara

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 12:42 pm

DrMom wrote:

What's "radical" about teaching children to respect one another, whether you're straight, gay or transgendered, or have parents who are straight, gay or transgendered? Surely you don't believe that your daughter, who has never experienced gender dysphoria, is going to decide to be a boy if she learns that we should not mock or attack transgendered people.

And in a country (the US) where nearly half of all high school students have had z3xual intercourse, surely you're not suggesting that we bury our heads in the sand and fail to teach them about z3xually transmitted diseases and about birth control. Are you stating that we should be proud that the states with abstinence only education have the highest teen pregnancy rates, and try to expand that record across the US.

Let me assure you. There are no programs saying queer is where its at; you should give it a try. And there are no programs saying take a walk on the other side; transgender is fun! Its all about acceptance.

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Jun 03 2015, 12:44 pm

zohar wrote:

and for some it is THE answer. You cant fit one answer for all.