Does this sound fishy?

Dolly Welsh

Tue, Jun 30 2015, 12:17 pm

"But I will lose the friendship," says the husband.

"No, you won't," says the wife.

"No, I will. Waaaahh," says the husband.

"Then it wasn't much of a friendship," says the wife. "I am trying to help you KEEP the friendship. Real friends can ask favors but do not get too mad if the answer is no. Annoyed, but not really, really mad. And I doubt he will. You are, frankly, too useful to get rid of. Darling, he is supposed to love you anyway."

WriterMom

Tue, Jun 30 2015, 12:29 pm

shoshanim999 wrote:

In theory if you ever put your date of birth and social security number on any document, then your subject to the person who is reviewing the document, to steal your info and turn your life upside down.

Not the same. Someone who lifts your DOB and SSN and commits fraud with them is committing identity theft. If you are a victim of identity theft, it's a massive hassle and can take months/years to settle, but you are ultimately not liable because you are (one of) the victims of the crime. You have done nothing criminal and should be able to work things out with the other parties involved such that you don't end up out any money (although again, this is always a time consuming nightmare to sort out and your credit rating will take a beating until it's sorted.)

None of this is true if you have helped someone commit fraud using your info. In that case you are on the "perpetrator" side of the equation, not the "victim" side. This isn't a small moral distinction, it's a big one; also a big financial and legal distinction.

As to these air miles/discount/bonus schemes ... banks are in the business of making money. They offer these promotions because they calculate that even after they give you the air miles, discounts, cash back, they will still come out ahead based on your spending and interest fees. If you're ever tempted to think that you are smarter than the banks, maybe ask yourself if you've ever had sustained profits as high as those of the banking sector, and think again.

Amarante

Tue, Jun 30 2015, 12:36 pm

The easy answer is that of course, no one should allow a third party to take out credit in that person's name. I can't imagine any legitimate reason why someone wants to "use" another person's credit. And, when push comes to shove, you now have absolutely no control about how the information is used.

And that "credit" that is being used by someone else means that you won't be able to get credit because banks/CC companies/car loan people are going to assume that it is YOUR credit.

And, then to add money laundering request on top of it. It is a HUGE crime in the US to transfer money in that way so I can only assume there is some kind of intent to defraud either the US or Israel government. I can't think of a single legitimate reason why someone can not transfer funds from the US to Israel. Banks in the US keep track of all transactions.

And if you don't believe there is fraud involved in both these schemes, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn that I would like to offer to your husband for a special low price. LOL

Your husband appears to be irrational and not willing to listen to reason on this subject. It doesn't matter how close he feels to this person - this other person is NOT telling him the whole truth and when push comes to shove will hang your husband out to dry.

You said not to address the ethics but why are religious people even contemplating transactions that are obviously less than kosher.

ora_43

Tue, Jun 30 2015, 12:38 pm

OP, it's hard to say how to convince your husband without knowing him.

Can you focus on the legal/ethical side, rather than what his friend might do? "I trust him, but I'm worried that maybe this isn't completely legal and he just doesn't realize it. Could we please talk to a (lawyer/financial advisor + rabbi) before doing this?"

Possibly with backup from imamother: "I remember reading online that banks are cracking down on that, and sometimes people's credit can get ruined."

rosehill

Tue, Jun 30 2015, 12:40 pm

amother wrote:

wow, now I know what to do.
exactly.
thank you for your insight.
especially when I specially asked to refrain from the debate of whether this is ethical or not.
simply wow.

I'm sorry that my post upset you. I see that it came out far angrier than I had intended. Perhaps it hit a nerve with me because of a personal experience, somewhat similar to yours.

Rest assured, any anger is not directed at you or your DH. You sound like wonderful people, doing your best to help a friend. The anger is directed at the 'friend' who should never have even put you in this position by asking for this favour.

I realize you're looking now for ways to persuade your husband to abandon this plan. You seem to have been given good advice here. I hope it works out well for you.

amother

Jetblack

Tue, Jun 30 2015, 12:51 pm

Op trust me don't let your dh do this. I was in your shoes and I'm telling you it will end bad. My dh did this for a very Erliche, yeshivish friend learning away in Lakewood, bmg and came from very wealthy parents no one ever thought he wouldn't have money to pay my dh back.

But what do you know this guy goes broke and cries to my dh what should I do I don't have the monet to pay it and we were stuck. It was a huge mess with a nightmare of having $700k of debt from someone else on my dh name and forcing my dh to go into bankruptcy.
trust me don't even start. I can write a page of reasons of how his can end badly.

One smart thing my dh did was that he wrote in his Ss number so that this friend didn't have his number. For another friend that he knew his Ss number the friend opened up way too many credit cards and put this other very good friend into a million dollars of debt

amother

Jetblack

Tue, Jun 30 2015, 12:58 pm

Op if you give me your email address I will tell you my story. My dh is so embarrassed that he was screwed by this friend and even four years later my dh credit was ruined. It affected us because at the time we were about to buy a house and we ended up losing the Josie because of it and the next house we bought had to be in my name only.

Also if your dh still wants to do it don't let this friend know his Ss number make sure ur dh at least fills that in.

The one precaution my dh took that saved us was that this friend didn't have his Ss number to continue using my dh name.
The saddest part is this guy is still learning in bmg with yichus surrounding his name and people still trust him. And he is still considered so chasuve.

WriterMom

Tue, Jun 30 2015, 1:19 pm

Laiya wrote:

Here's an even more worst-case scenario: The friend is using the money for things not quite above-board, and when he's caught, he tries to shift the blame to OP's dh, claiming he knew what all these money transfers were for and willingly participated.

Yup. "Oh, I knew and consented to him fraudulently getting credit cards in my name, but had no idea he was going to do additional illegal things after the initial fraud" doesn't give you much credibility.

Ugh. I hate how women's financial stability and security can so easily be held hostage to husbands who do stupid things. (I'm sure it's possible for it to work the other way too, not trying to be sexist, but I've seldom heard of wives destroying husbands' credit through a scam like this.)

leah233

Tue, Jun 30 2015, 1:58 pm

Like everyone else here my advice is don't do it.To explain why manufactured spending is theft with these CC businesses:Frequently what they do is buy expensive airline tickets. Then they transfer the points to another account. Then they cancel the ticket and ask for a refund.I know of a few Lakewood Rabbonim who were asked about this. The unanimous consensus was that this is pure theft and Genavis Daas.

amother

Amethyst

Tue, Jun 30 2015, 2:10 pm

amother wrote:

can you give me a link to such a letter. it would be a blessing.
p.s. - the way this guy "manufactures" spending is because his mother owns a business and he has her do the purchases on the card and then pays with his/his mothers money

I know someone that did this for a friend. Sara owned a business. Rivka opened a cc and wanted to get points so offered sara to use the card to purchase things for the business. Sara did. But the business wasn't profitable so rivka never got paid back.
I don't know what would work to tell your husband to stay away. But maybe tell him you insist on getting the credit limit in cash in advance of the spending. He'll probably be too embarrassed to ask for it.

Miri7

Tue, Jun 30 2015, 3:34 pm

Can you explain to DH that you and he are now a financial unit and depend on each other, so you need to make major financial decisions together? That you each depend on the others good credit?

Once credit is wrecked it can cause years of hardship.

Tell him that obviously his friend must not realize that your DH and you are bearing all the risk in this arrangement. Clearly his friend would never suggest a scheme that put DH at risk. To to that appointment with the financial adviser and find out what the risk is. Then DH should see that this is a risky business. Ask what happens if the fraud is found out, or DH's credit lines are not paid off. The advisor should be able to lay out pretty clearly that it would be disastrous for you.

Then your DH can explain to his friend that the risk is just more than you all are comfortable with. A good friend won't push another into an uncomfortable and risky situation. If he tries to, tell your DH that it makes you very uncomfortable and concerned that this guy is pushing you to do something that makes you uncomfortable.

If this guy has your DH's social, you need to pay off and close out all the credit cards, freeze the old social security number and get a new one. And don't give it to anyone.

Good luck. This just sounds like an awful situation. Your DH needs to figure out that you and he come before "favors" to other people. Sounds like this friend is manipulating him pretty well....

Dolly Welsh

Tue, Jun 30 2015, 3:39 pm

shoshanim999 wrote:

You can always find an extreme example where sometimes things go horribly wrong. For that to happen another person would have to commit fraud and open up credit cards and take out bank loans in someone else's name. In theory if you ever put your date of birth and social security number on any document, then your subject to the person who is reviewing the document, to steal your info and turn your life upside down. I agree if we will worry about the most extreme possible case then I guess don't do favors for anyone because who knows what might happen. Also, someone mentioned that selling points is illegal. Simply wrong.

No, don't do THIS KIND of favor for anyone.

Nothing financial. Or just hand them food and money for free saying you would do the same for me if I ever needed it. But nothing involving paper. No using someone else's bank account or credit cards or name or social, or anything involving fiddling with the financial system.

It simply hardens people to being insincere. Don't even let someone hold the door open for you after using a pay toilet. Say, no, close the door, I will pay.

Keep your nose soft and innocent. You don't want it to get hard. Be rich enough to afford these little things like wire fees. They are much cheaper than this.

As for points, that's INTENDED only for the actual customer. It's ridiculous anyway because it takes a billions of points to go one mile on the airplane, so the whole thing is silly anyway, most of the time. Respect others' intentions and they might respect yours.

Not only are free lunches not free but other people's free lunches are not your problem and you should not be recruited into them. Just wrinkle your nose. It 's good to have a reputation of not having a stam or taste for anything like that.

justcallmeima

Tue, Jun 30 2015, 9:17 pm

FWIW I agree with the poster who said to tell dh- "You're a big boy. You know how I feel about this. I will not allow you to use my name or personal info. If you want to do this I obviously can't force you not to." Ultimately he will have to decide to do it or not. As most other women here, I really, really hope he doesn't do it, but sometimes the only way people will learn is from their own mistakes.

Dolly Welsh

Tue, Jun 30 2015, 9:30 pm

I disagree with all this niceness.

I think OP should not permit this.

As for his learning from his own mistakes, that's a proper perspective normally, but OP is not going to escape any bad consequences because it is her home and her finances and her husband's reputation. Anything bad that happens to him will happen to her as well.

Orchid

Tue, Jun 30 2015, 9:56 pm

Sounds like illegal money laundering.

From a US tax perspective, if at ANY POINT in the year, you had more than $10,000 in a foreign account, even if it was immediately withdrawn, you have to report this to the govt via Form 114 (also called FBAR). Draconian fines apply for noncompliance.

Deadline is in 2 hours to file your FBAR :-)

Back to your specific issue: Can you tell your DH "I DO NOT want you to do this. I'm wondering why you insist on making this friend happy over your own wife's demands? This is a shalom bayis issue. Why is he more important than me? Can we go to a Rav over this?"

amother

Coffee

Tue, Jun 30 2015, 10:16 pm

The hard part is that you probably trust your husband, so you feel bad putting your foot down. I would be so adamant that your husband ends this money relationship with this guy. Believe me, I had a story with A close relative that I had to be soooo stubborn about. It was really hard for my husband to back out cuz he had already given this relative too much, I was very firm that it had to end. Bh it ended before too much damage was done. Let yourself be the mean one now who absolutely won't allow her husband to fall into this trap. He can even blame it on you.
They can still be friends about Gemara etc. not business!